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 Post subject: Ford Stephenson "Rocket" replica up for auction
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:26 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9318
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Chicago Tribune, Sunday Sepy. 12th, reporting on the Jasper Wigglesworth Automotive Collection auction coming up Saturday the 18th:

"Another extraordinary offering, Lot 714, is a replica of George Stephenson's Rocket, the first steam engine to pull a train effectively in England in 1829, when it won the Rainhill Trials at 30 mph. Henry Ford had the same Stephenson company build four replicas for the centennial of the Trials, and this one was displayed at the Rockefeller Center in New York before Bill Harrah bought it in 1950. If you've got $10,000-15,000 (and a few miles of track) a great opportunity awaits."

Photo shows the "Rocket", dusty and in need of paint on some of the wooden parts, but fine-looking otherwise.

Auction details: 21320 Midland Drive, Shawnee, KS 66218. Auction 11 AM Sept. 18th, preview Thursday and Friday. Call 415-391-4000 for catalog and info; fax Bonhams & Butterfields 415-861-8951. Preview admission free, $45 admission to sale which admits two and includes catalog. 115 lots are cars, many expected to reach six figures (an 1895 Benz, a 1913 Mercer 35J Raceabout); an additional 333 lots encompasses toys, automobilia, steam engines, bicycles, music boxes, etc.

Now, it occurs to me that a loco like this (replica as it may be) belongs in a museum covering the breadth of rail history (say, CSRM, National RR Museum-Green Bay, IRM, or RR Museum of Pa.), and that although $10-15K could go a long way towards, say, paint, if this is an operable loco it'd be a bargain. Heck, some small live-steamers probably go for more!

Questions: Where are the other three? (I assume one is in Greenfield Village.) Is this reconstruction capable of passing current boiler codes and being operable, or is it so faithful a reproduction that no one would hold a match near it?


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 Post subject: Rocket replica
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:39 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:52 pm
Posts: 76
Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry has a Rocket replica, but I won't claim to know if its from the same order.


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 Post subject: Rocket Replica
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:09 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 410
Location: Baltimore. MD
Sandy,

I need to review my records at home, but serveral R Stephenson & Co. replicas were built at the time of the centenary, and they are not all identical. The Ford one was built to exact standards of the original, including hand formed tubes and hand riveting. Some of the others are more in the sense of replicas, and I think some are even cutaways. Will have to look up my copy of Loco Profile Rocket; I believe that pub differentiates all of the various Rocket replicas.

steve


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 Post subject: Re: Ford Stephenson "Rocket" replica up for auctio
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:53 am 
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Posts: 1136
Location: Beaumont, Texas
Dearborne Village seems to have sold off several steam pieces in the past few years. A stationary steam engine formally with the Henry Ford Museum was on e-bay a few months ago; and a Birdsall Portable Steam Engine from the museum has showed up on e-bay twice since.

Does anyone know why? Are they planning on disposing of any more items?

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a


Surviving World Steam Project


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 Post subject: Ford Museum
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1374
Location: Henderson Nevada
For some years now the Ford Museum has been accessing their collection and de-accessioning un-needed items. Under Henry Ford’s guidance they would collect almost any technological or historical artifact that came within their grasp.

At one point they were trying to have one of everything. Today they want what they need for their interpretive and research mission.

They have been quite open about the choices and the process used to dispose of the artifacts. There have been several auctions and sales, but only after the artifacts have been offered to the museum community. Funds generated go toward the collection and its care (not to the operating budget)

Their preservation policy is available on line at http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/he ... olicy.html


Randy

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 Post subject: Who dropped the ball on the . . .
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:26 pm 

If The Henry Ford will make their items available to the museum community, then how did the Detroit & Mackinaw wood baggage car - restored by the D&M and kept indoors by them and the Henry Ford - end up being owned by a New Jersey hardware store that keeps it outside and reportedly uses it for a showroom? This is one of the most significant pieces C. 1900 rolling stock surviving from a Michigan railroad and one is one of the best surviving wood baggage car anywhere. As many of you on this list already know, wood passenger equipment doesn't fare well when kept outdoors for extended periods of time without constant attention.

On the same note, what happened to the wood observation car from the Henry Ford with Pullman paper wheels that was listed for about a year on D.F. Barnhardt? What is the current status of the PRR wood coach that I last heard was on display outside of a station in Newtown Square, PA?

http://www.nwrailroadvideos.com/rrBranc ... iding.html


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 Post subject: The Rocket
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:21 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:10 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Michigan
The Rocket is on display opposite the Allegheny in the museum.


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 Post subject: Re: Ford Stephenson "Rocket" replica up for auctio
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:00 am
Posts: 88
The auctioneer of this auction had contacted me awhile ago. He had what at the time was an 'unknown' steam locomotive from the "Wigglesworth Collection" for sale. He sent a picture and I identified it as a Fred Glaze 22" gauge locomotive. This one was used at Swope Park in Kansas City. Ironically, I was told this locomotive was stolen and had not been seen since the 1950s! I've heard various stories. It probably is in this auction, and it will probably be sold with this...or perhaps it WAS sold in an earlier auction. No tender. Also this weekend is the auction of two Crown 2' gauge steamers restored by Chad O'Connor (aka the builder of the Golden Spike replica engines, and restorer of the "Deanna", "Chloe", his own Porter (now Fillmore & Western "Sespe"), etc. The auction will be held at Bonfante Gardens in Gilroy; the locomotives have only been test-run since rebuilding over 10 years ago! Must be a popular weekend for auctions...

-Ed Kelley


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 Post subject: Rockets
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 410
Location: Baltimore. MD
Four were built by Stephenson for the Centenary: E137 7-8-29 for Henry Ford for £2451, E149 1-30-31 for MSI in Chicago (then known as Museum of Peaceful Arts) for £1908, E150 9-22-31 for MSI of NY which is probably the subject locomotive for £2113, and E155 2-14-35 for the Kensington Science Museum at £1839. Only the Ford model was claimed to be made to authentic methods.

Steve


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 Post subject: Rockets again
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 410
Location: Baltimore. MD
Image

Just as I suspected. It is the sectioned one.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Rockets
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:43 pm 
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Location: Beaumont, Texas
SZuiderveen wrote:
Four were built by Stephenson for the Centenary: E137 7-8-29 for Henry Ford for £2451, E149 1-30-31 for MSI in Chicago (then known as Museum of Peaceful Arts) for £1908, E150 9-22-31 for MSI of NY which is probably the subject locomotive for £2113, and E155 2-14-35 for the Kensington Science Museum at £1839. Only the Ford model was claimed to be made to authentic methods.

Steve


I am confused; isn't E137 for sale, or is it E150? Which of the two are sectioned?

By the way, E155 is now in the National Railway Museum in York. Kensington Science Museum now has the original "Rocket".

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project


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 Post subject: Re: Rockets
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
Posts: 286
Location: Lawrence, Mass.
Quote:
By the way, E155 is now in the National Railway Museum in York. Kensington Science Museum now has the original "Rocket".


As I recall, the original Rocket (in her rebuilt form with lowered cylinders, among other things) has been in the museum in Kensington for many years now, along with one of the replicas which depicts the original configuration. I thought the York replica was a more recent one which is maintained in working condition. Or are there two replicas in York now? I know the Deltic diesel made her way north, and the Caerphilly Castle (the original GWR "Castle" class 4-6-0) is now in the museum in Swindon, so it wouldn't surprise me all that much if any other railway artifacts have left Kensington in recent years.


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 Post subject: Re: Ford Stephenson "Rocket" replica up for auctio
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:52 pm 
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Location: Beaumont, Texas
Richard,

You are correct; there are two Rockets at the National Railway Museum in York.

One is on display as a static exhibit; that is the Robert Stephenson & Hawthorn locomotive.

The second Rocket is operational; and was built by a firm named Locomotion Enterprises of Springwell in 1979 as construction number 2.

They both show the cylinders at the original angle; the orginal Rocket in the museum in Kensington has the lowered cylinders.

All three are pictured in Surviving World Steam Locomotives

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project


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 Post subject: Rockets,
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:25 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 410
Location: Baltimore. MD
A little disingenuity on the part of the auction house. Using the Ford name, but it is not the Ford locomotive.

The original reproduction was commissioned by Henry Ford, but the one up for auction is the one from New York City (E150 according to Loco Profile), then Harrahs, and now the Wigglesworth collection.

If it wasn't sectioned, I'd be real tempted to bid. . . . . although it would be a damned fine replacement for smashed Pangbourn Rocket in Balto.

Steve Zuiderveen


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 Post subject: Watch your criticism- build a museum, fund it all
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:17 pm
Posts: 547
Location: Ballard, WA
Tom Cornillie-

that D&M baggage car donated to Henry Ford Museum in 1979 by the D&M was not indoors. It was parked outside on the siding in Greenfield Village. It was used during Greenfield Village's Railroad Days to host storytelling for kids. The car was not in its best shape before it went to NJ. It was painted, trucks separated, then on two separate trailers was trucked away. Would you rather see that car languish on a back track instead of put to some use?
The D&M business car from the same donation left the same year. It was trucked away in the same manner as the baggage car, but I do not know the location of the car.
You fail to mention that there is a D&M wooden combine safely on display inside the climate controlled museum.
You should not criticize the Henry Ford. They do not have miles of rail to display everything, much like every other rail institution they have to be selective. If you do not like some piece of equipment remaining out of doors- donate the entire funds of restoration, transort and housing to a museum of your choice.


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