In a Knoxville, TN park for several decades. Isn't there a group working on this one?

http://southern.railfan.net/images/arch ... ou154.html

The group who actually owns it (Old Smoky Chapter of NRHS) is not now nor have they ever had any intention of restoring it. They have marginally kept it painted but even that process took about 3 years to happen and it still hasn't been relettered. The engine should be considered in danger as this group is more interested in infighting then preservation. They also have a track full of interesting passenger cars, most of which leak, with no plans for any of them. Several of the cars are in mechanically good enough shape they could be used in a operational setting but there is no interest among the group.
We need to keep an eye on the 154.

The Southern Railway Knoxville passenger station was restored around 1991 for commercial office space and the Old Smoky Chapter keeps their passenger equipment there.But the cars there now are not the same ones I remember seeing when boarding Southern steam specials in the early 80s.At the time there was a C&O diner named Suter's Tavern, two Southern heavyweight Pullmans and a Smoky Mountain RR caboose on the station track.It is my opinion this equipment got scrapped when the station was restored.The Old Smoky Chapter never ran Norfolk Southern excursions on a regular basis after 1985 and I heard it was because of politics between the chapter and the railroads.As for 154 around 10 years ago I remember seeing a local TV news broadcast showing the asbestos removal and how there were plans to display it at the Southern station. I recently read somewhere localy that the current 154 repaint is being financed by two Knoxville individuals that are not connected with Old Smoky.I don't know any members but it seems the Old Smoky organization fell apart after the mid-eighties,so many times the NS excursion train just deadheaded through Knoxville while enroute to excursions in Kingsport/Johnson City or Asheville from Chattanooga.

Most of the facts you have stated are incorrect except to note that Old Smoky has problems with inside politics.

Hello,

Does anyone here have a current or all-time equipment roster for this group and/or recent photos of these cars?

Also, as a kind and general suggestion - I recommend that in criticising something that you sign your post with your full name. On many boards (including this one) those who make accurate or constructive criticism are discredited as "bashing" no matter how accurate their statements may be. Signing your post with your full name is an important in signifying that you believe the information to be accurate and are willing to stand by your statements.

I may have made a poor choice of words in my remarks about Old Smoky,but their 1979 to 1985 trips are what made me a railfan and I was greatly disapointed when they declined in number.They had saturday and sunday trips each spring and fall,but after 85 the only trips I recall them running where a run to Chattanooga with TVRM's 610 one way, a trip to the Kingston steam plant with 1218,the 1993 CSX trip to Corbin with NKP 765, and an Amtrak Superliner trip to Corbin in 98.I know they had the national NRHS convention in 1975,but that was before my time.I hope I did not seem critical of Old Smoky,I just always wondered what happened to the equipment that was there inthe 80s.I remember the cars were in very poor shape as well as the station which suffered a fire that destroyed the western annex sometime in the late 80s.Homeless people have always been a problem there and I remember an editorial in the Knoxville News-Sentinel that called for demolition of the station. I don't have any kind of roster but I did make a quick drive by the station last year.There was a heavyweight observation,a heavyweight RPO,a streamlined Southern combo car that looks like it could be from the original Tennessean,a Southern modernized heavyweight coach still in mantinence of way black, and a couple of cabooses. When the poster said my facts were incorrect,I wish he had told me why they are incorrect. I did not make up the remarks about 154,it did have it's asbestos removed and a local tv station did a story on it.The tv reporter said it got their attention because there was a large fabric cocoon around 154 with men working in what looked like spacesuits. I can't remember where I read it at but the new 154 repaint is being paid for by two Knoxville men,I think one is a lawyer.There was a remark about lack of volunteer interest. I think all my remarks are backed up with facts and only stated them because the previous poster stated the 154 may be in danger.I thought it might be conceivable since the nearby Jacobs Building had a multi-million dollar makeover and the park may want to get rid of 154.

Also, please don't mis interpret my earlier statement. Constructive criticism is important and it should be appreciated even if it is not considered good news. A museum/group/whatever can pay a consultant $$$ for criticism and ideas that may not as be as insightful as those coming from the general public. It is also important to identify where and why you think bad choices have been made and what you think can be done now to rectify them.

Remember - Ideas are important - even if they are not what you want to hear!

Current Roster for Old Smoky Chapter-NRHS, Knoxville, TN.

ex-SR 154, on display at Chilhowee Park. Asbestos removed and repainted by organization twice. Most recently the Knoxville city council complained about it's appearence so a 3-year project to repaint it began, still not complete. Many parts from the locomotive have disappeared. All of the wood components have rotted away. It now looks very sad.

Pullman built private car Seminole for A. K. Macomber, 1915. Numerous roof leaks, side sheets and sills are rusting through but it looks good inside.

Ex CofG Jim Crow coach turned SR/NS MOW car. Refurbished inside with modern carpet ect. for use as a club meeting car. It serves it's purpose well.

Ex-SR RPO #39. Excellent original condition.

Ex-SP 12 Dbl-BR lightweight Pullman Standard built sleeper (original number uncertain). Completlly functional when parked 10 years ago. Now it is full of junk, vagrants have broken in, it has a leak at one end and it has corrosion issues.

Ex-C&O lightweight coach #1260. A complete car that could be refurbished for use. It benefitted from a complete Amtrak rebuild years ago. The window gaskets allow water into the side sheets so it won't last forever. It has also sat for 10 years.

Ex-SR lightweight, baggage/dorm/coach "South Carolina" rebuilt from a wrecked Jim Crow coach. Leaks badly, water stands in the floor. Several windows are out. Looks good from the outside.

Ex-SR transfer caboose, SC-1
Ex-SR bay window caboose (broken window, needs replacing)
Ex-N&W cupola caboose
The cabeese seem to be in the best shape, bay window car has a window out and has had or years.

The "museum" is not open on a regular basis. They have an open house about once a year when 25-50 people come down and tour the cars. Active members number about 5. Full membership is about 25-30. They meet the first Tuesday of each month at 7:00PM. Usually anywhere from 7 to 12 people attend.

Previously the club owned:
Ex-Pullman McKinnysburg, Ex-SR and Pullman Canonbury Tower, Ex-C&O Suter's Tavern, Ex-KS&E wooden caboose and a wooden boxcar. All were sold off to various individuals after being allowed to sit unattended and neglected for years. These cars have met various fates after they left Old Smoky ownership.

My suggestion is that when people have criticism of an organization they should take it up with the offending organization (which I have and so have others). Every thing I have said here is honest and common knowledge to people who live in the area. I don't use my full name to protect my privacy from spammers and other internet merry pranksters. If anybody wants to know who I am they can contact me off-line and I will invite you over to my house for a complete and honest discussion of these issues.

I wasn't defending Old Smoky, I was just stating that in this context you have made a number of statements about the equipment that just isn't true. The asbestos removal and initial painting of the 154 was a long time ago, a lot of water has passed under the bridge. The city council and other planners have wanted the 154 out of the park to better utilize the space. The engine has had a lot of parts removed, things have disappeared from time to time, like the steam gauge and the marker lamps (and where did that weird headlight come from?). As I just posted there are a lot of problems with the loco now, the wooden timbers under the tender have all rotted away, the windows are gone from the cab. The most recent paint job was cheap and quick, I doubt it will last long and the city council will be complaining again. The boiler jacket was saved but somebody took it while in storage. It has not been relettered, the ties under the engine have all rotted into the ground...I could go on and on. Bottom line if there is a serious problem with the engine there is no safety-net to prevent it from being cut up or dragged off somewhere. It should be preserved and presented in a much more appropriate and safer venue.

I think the only former passenger car of Old Smoky's that was scrapped was the Suter's Tavern and that was years after Old Smoky sold it. The Pullmans survived. The depot restoration had nothing to do with the cars. Old Smoky pays rent to park their cars down there, nothing more.

That organization has a single member that can only be described as a bully. He spends all his waking hours trying to find ways to push people around and inflate himself. Because of his longevity he has outlived almost everybody and risen to the top of the organization where he controls everything. No matter how helpful a new member might be he accuses them of crazy things and confronts them. This single member uses his own money to buy enough memberships so that he can control everything that happens with proxy votes, up to and including giving his family club positions. Saddest thing of all...he is not a railfan and knows nothing about railroad history...he calls them "choo-choo's". Just pathetic. This "man" is also an NRHS national director and has vetoed the addition of other more worthy organizations into NRHS membership.

Given all the comments about this equipment being endangered... does anyone know if the "group," such as it is, would be willing to part with any of it? The steamer is obviously the "prize" of the collection but a couple other items sound intertesting, too.

Historical question - where did the 154 primarily operate?

Thank's lightning stripes for clearing things up,I thought the asbestos removal was about 10 years ago but it could have been more.Now that I have thought more about it the Suter's Tavern diner may have been gone before 1981.It happened to be the 2nd piece of train equipment I ever climbed aboard.I think it was around 1980 when a neighbor of mine was an Old Smoky member and took me to a club meeting and a tour of the passenger equipment.I was only about 12 years old but I remember going through the Pullmans,but what interested me most was the rusting Suter's Tavern.The neighbor told me it was too far gone then.He left Old Smoky and moved away about 1982.But this visit got me interested enough in trains to ride a steam excursion that year with the 2839 and thus I was hooked. I too have been concerned about 154,I even e-mailed the Appalachia Railway museum at Oak Ridge and Spencer Shops about acquiring it.They both declined interest.

The 154 only survived because it was leased to the Smoky Mountain Railroad between Knoxville and Sevierville,Tenn after Southern Ry had retired their own steam.The Smoky relied alot on Southern for the upkeep of their locomotives and ended all steam operations only when SR dismantled all steam repair facilities in Knoxville.The 154 was built for the East Tennessee,Virginia & Georgia that was soon merged into Southern.I know that from 1903 to 1925 engines of it's class were preferred power on the Knoxville to Morristown via Bean Station and Rutledge "Peavine RR".Although there are no known photographs to confirm it.This route was abandoned in the 1920s.All of the photographs I have seen of 154 in Southern Ry service were taken around the Asheville,NC roundhouse in the 1940s so I would guess it spent alot of it's career there.Maybe switching the paper mill at Canton or running the branch to Hendersonville?

From time to time various people have suggested that they trade equipment around so that they could have a collection more representive of the area but they have no interest at all. They feel that they have the "finest museum train anywhere" and all they need is "the right members to come in and fix it all up". In fact, a shortline operator wanted to borrow or lease the 154 so he could fix it up to operate, a dream for most museums but instead they resisted strongly (bullied him around). The operator went elsewhere and bought/restored another steamer and the 154 still sits rusting.

JW is right about the 154's operating history. We understand that a logging opperation or lumber yard in the Asheville area had leased it for a while before it was sent to "rescue" the Smoky Mountain RR, which is why it had survived so long up to that point. Smoky Mountain's track was so very bad that diesels burned up their traction motors trying to negotiate the line.

I know this is an old conversation but does anyone know of any current contacts down at Old Smoky?

Nothing has changed. Some of the old bullies have passed away. The old president-for-life could be 85 by now. The last time I talked to him I tried to figure out what was going on and he would not answer any questions.
T7