Not trying to beat an iron horse to death with this, but what was it that turned Norfolk-Southern sour on steam operations? They easily were the premier steam shop in the nation and the list of locomotives they had renewed is equally impressive. Any shop that would take static, display pieces and turn them into brething powerhouses had to be an asset to any railroad, if not the nation. When it comes down to the bottom line, what killed N-S steam?



glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

> Not trying to beat an iron horse to death
> with this, but what was it that turned
> Norfolk-Southern sour on steam operations?
> They easily were the premier steam shop in
> the nation and the list of locomotives they
> had renewed is equally impressive. Any shop
> that would take static, display pieces and
> turn them into brething powerhouses had to
> be an asset to any railroad, if not the
> nation. When it comes down to the bottom
> line, what killed N-S steam?

And the answer is....

Corporate politics and the chance to backstab someone. Unfortunately, the steam operation had not always endeared itself to the operating management at the Southern or NS, and there was no one who felt the need to object to the dismantling of the Steam Department. That is the Readers' Digest version: nothing more, nothing less.

Ahh, for those that believed killing the steam program demonstrated fiscal restrain and a dedication to the core mission..

So.. why is it that NS stock has gone from 38 to where it is now, there's rumors on Wall Street about it being a takeover target.. It looks like CSX is kicking the heck out them in head to head competition..certainly gone are they days when NS senior management was bragging in the wall street journal..

If I had stock, I'd take the performance under the steam loving Claytors any day...

Unfortunately, even the latter isn't enough to have any Fortune 500 Board of Directors vigorously represent the interest of shareholders and sent the tax lawyer and his merry band packing...

Just glad I never did buy NS stock @ 28 like I once considered...

UP & CPR are to be congratulated for embracing its history..

First, history is nice, but it pays neither the bills nor the dividends. Not to get into a hopeless and useless debate over the issue, but there really is no tie whatsoever between a railroad's "sense of history" or lack thereof, and its financial performance. If that were indeed the case, roads like the D&H, Reading, and B&O would still be extant and thriving today, rather than having been merged away.

Second, here's some of the more rational and less emotional response to the original question: Not long before the end of NS steam in 1994, NS suffered a catastrophic derailment of an employee special in the Great Dismal Swamp west of Norfolk. Two cars were totaled, and many serious injuries resulted. 611 was not responsible (a diesel-hauled train would have done the same thing at that heat kink), but it did dramatically demonstrate the potential liability of excursions. Suffice it to say that if it had been a public trip, there might not be ANY mainline steam excursions anywhere in North America today except in Amtrak cars.
Then, in 1994, a switching accident in Kinney Yard in Lynchburg damaged or destroyed several cars of an empty deadhead movement. Now, the accident was not the fault of the steam program, but as I was told, an executive asked in an emergency meeting after the accident, "What if that had been a loaded passenger movement?", and the coffin door was apparently closed at about that moment.

I have no interest in starting a hopeless shouting match over a dead issue. Although I feel NS's subsequent (mis)handling of 1218 borders on the criminal, the last I heard was that this is still a free country that has private property rights. If you think you can tell NS what to do with 1218 and the steam program, or tell the Kovalchiks to hand over the EBT to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, then fine, I can also tell you that you must drive nothing bigger than a Yugo, or what color to paint your house, or how many beers you're allowed to drink in your house a day.

When 611 made its farewell excursions in 1994, I drove down from Maryland to the Carolinas just to unfurl a banner at Clemson, S.C. on Saturday and at Saluda, N.C. on Sunday--"Thanks for the Memories, Norfolk Southern!" Were that other rail enthusiasts that enjoyed the largess of Southern and NS for 25 years had been gracious enough to express gratitude, rather than scorn and insults.

Sadly, I think the fate of 1218 thus far is perhaps a proper response to the unruly children in question.

LNER4472@gateway.net

> First, history is nice, but it pays neither
> the bills nor the dividends. Not to get into
> a hopeless and useless debate over the
> issue, but there really is no tie whatsoever
> between a railroad's "sense of
> history" or lack thereof, and its
> financial performance. If that were indeed
> the case, roads like the D&H, Reading,
> and B&O would still be extant and
> thriving today, rather than having been
> merged away.

> Second, here's some of the more rational and
> less emotional response to the original
> question: Not long before the end of NS
> steam in 1994, NS suffered a catastrophic
> derailment of an employee special in the
> Great Dismal Swamp west of Norfolk. Two cars
> were totaled, and many serious injuries
> resulted. 611 was not responsible (a
> diesel-hauled train would have done the same
> thing at that heat kink), but it did
> dramatically demonstrate the potential
> liability of excursions. Suffice it to say
> that if it had been a public trip, there
> might not be ANY mainline steam excursions
> anywhere in North America today except in
> Amtrak cars.
> Then, in 1994, a switching accident in
> Kinney Yard in Lynchburg damaged or
> destroyed several cars of an empty deadhead
> movement. Now, the accident was not the
> fault of the steam program, but as I was
> told, an executive asked in an emergency
> meeting after the accident, "What if
> that had been a loaded passenger
> movement?", and the coffin door was
> apparently closed at about that moment.

> I have no interest in starting a hopeless
> shouting match over a dead issue. Although I
> feel NS's subsequent (mis)handling of 1218
> borders on the criminal, the last I heard
> was that this is still a free country that
> has private property rights. If you think
> you can tell NS what to do with 1218 and the
> steam program, or tell the Kovalchiks to
> hand over the EBT to the Commonwealth of
> Pennsylvania, then fine, I can also tell you
> that you must drive nothing bigger than a
> Yugo, or what color to paint your house, or
> how many beers you're allowed to drink in
> your house a day.

> When 611 made its farewell excursions in
> 1994, I drove down from Maryland to the
> Carolinas just to unfurl a banner at
> Clemson, S.C. on Saturday and at Saluda,
> N.C. on Sunday--"Thanks for the
> Memories, Norfolk Southern!" Were that
> other rail enthusiasts that enjoyed the
> largess of Southern and NS for 25 years had
> been gracious enough to express gratitude,
> rather than scorn and insults.

> Sadly, I think the fate of 1218 thus far is
> perhaps a proper response to the unruly
> children in question.



upacific@copland.udel.edu

Perhaps the Claytor dynasty was the last dynasty of railroaders to operate NS, and the last of the old world Southern Gentlemen too. The board rooms and uper echelons of railroad management today are more likely to be composed of lawyers and accountants than folk who worked their way up through the industry, which mirrors the general trend in business of the past few decades. Their understanding is based on the principles of business rather than the railroading business particularly.

Unfortunately, this has led to the shrinking of the industry into the high profit mainline hauling unit train system of a few huge contenders in something like limited competetion we have today, giving away the more marginal short haul and industrial delivery work to the truckers.

A direct result of this has been the loss of the concept and image and even understanding of railroading to the general public since they no longer interact with it at a personal level.

The steam excursion programs makes railroading accessable in a very friendly and nostalgic and dignified way, allowing a pleasant and meaningful up close and personal interaction for citizens who don't move thousands of tons of coal every week. Steam locomotives also affect people on a very elemental level - in few other machines is raw power so voluably displayed as steam under load at speed. The ground shakes, the whistle blows and the wind rushes past our faces as the engine roars by. You don't need to have ever ridden or worked on steam to be profoundly affected.

Why is this of potential importance to the business people who run railroads today? Simply, we haven't ever formulated a national transportation policy inn this country with any rational basis anbd what with the problems we built by having no policy in terms of population, traffic and energy one will be provided and enforced at some point in the future. Wouldn't it be great to have the voters who will approve whatever plan understand your vital role and be on your side?

Too often, the only public face of railroading is the holdup at the grade crossing or the news report of the wreck or toxic chemical spill. Railroads need an ambassador to their own country to reach out and bring everyday non railfans citizens into the fold. If not steam excursions, something must be found.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

The "official" NS tag line in Trains magazine was, to paraphrase, "due to increased traffic, the railroad had no capacity on their tracks to handle the passenger excursions."

UP gave a tongue-in-cheek shot back that, again to paraphrase, "NS should now fire all of its marketing and sales guys since they can't handle anymore trains."

NS can go to hell. Long live the memory of the Southern Railway.

stealthnfo@aol.com

What an excellent, eloquent, and well thought out response! I would have to throw my hat into your corner 100% on each and every point you made. American industry is becoming a morass of unified, faceless, authorities, rather than employers and direct memebers of the community. If not appealing to the days when we each admired the engineer and fireman, the men who tamed the steam locomotive, then what indeed?
Wonderful essay you wrote.

glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

Sandy,

I think the Great Dismal Swamp incident in 1986, contributed to the end of the NS Steam program for a different reason. Immediately after that episode, a 40 mph speed restriction was placed on all steam movements.

This made all steam movements into a major headache for the operating department. When they were running at track speed (with a few slow orders for certain bridges and curves), they could keep pace with the hot piggyback trains. After the speed restriction, the steam trains had to take sidings and this caused dispatching nightmares. It also turned a pleasant eight hour holiday for families into a twelve hour marathon and drove away many of the non-railfans whose support was vital to filling the coaches.

In addition to the 40 mph restriction, I think another fatal flaw was the frequency. Instead of running every weekend from April through mid-November, if they had run three or four trips out of Roanoke every year, it would have lessened the strain on NS personnel, and also caused less wear and tear on the equipment. This formula has been used successfully for years by the Union Pacific.

One only hopes that a future NS management team will see the benefits accruing to UP, CP and BNSF from steam operations, and hopefully reactivate #611 again if not #1218.

kevingillespie@usa.net

> Having an MBA in finance, I certainly would not say financial performance of any business is related to its embrace of its antiquated technologies..I think I have been misunderstood.

My point is this: given the state of corporate governance, a great many things can be posited by senior management as necessities when in fact that are little more than executive fiat whithin a broad domain of managerial discretion. Remember management is a fiduciary, not the owner so their decisions are not above review (or my hyperbolic comment)

If the concerns cited then were genuine and pressing, then something should have been done by management and if not management, then the board to deliver for NS shareholders, the true owners. In the past few years, the only great return I see coming from NS was to Mr. LeVan. So in light of bad financial and operating performance, I question the steam decision, not visa versa

With regard to the 1218 AMEN!!!, and I think that proves my point. They should make a decision... there is certainly no point in hanging on to a non revenue producing asset that has no value outside a charitable deduction. Choose Spencer or Choose Steamtown or VTM, get the deduction. Forget being chided at the country club. The job is one of a trustee, not a monarch

You must apply the same measure to Mr.LeVan. Notwithstanding his personal gains as a result of being the CEO of Conrail, he surely created some significant wealth for Conrail's owners including those employees who were inversted in benefit plans that were tied to or owned Conrail Stock.

v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net

> What an excellent, eloquent, and well
> thought out response! I would have to throw
> my hat into your corner 100% on each and
> every point you made. American industry is
> becoming a morass of unified, faceless,
> authorities, rather than employers and
> direct memebers of the community. If not
> appealing to the days when we each admired
> the engineer and fireman, the men who tamed
> the steam locomotive, then what indeed?
> Wonderful essay you wrote.

No wonder I couldn't fit into my hat this afternoon. Thanks for your kind words.

Anybody out there know another good way to reach out to John Doe?

Dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

> Too often, the only public face of
> railroading is the holdup at the grade
> crossing or the news report of the wreck or
> toxic chemical spill. Railroads need an
> ambassador to their own country to reach out
> and bring everyday non railfans citizens
> into the fold. If not steam excursions,
> something must be found.

These last two thoughts have resulted in an ambassador program in its own way. Operation Lifesaver brings the message of highway crossing and railroad trespassing safety into schools and the community. By giving talks at Lions and Rotary clubs, to school bus drivers and local law enforcement officers, we do spread the message of the railroad industry.

We do need more to volunteer their time to reach out to the public with this vital safety message. In doing so, we do give our audience at least one opportunity to learn about railroads and the role we play in our nation's commerce.

Stone Consulting & Design
garyland@stoneconsulting.com

> First, history is nice, but it pays neither

Well, I have a few things to add and counter to your arguement. To say that history and a corporations proud embrace of it does not pay the bills is not correct. My employer, now 115 years old has placed great emphasis on it's history and has spent great sums of resources to make sure that each and every employee feels that they are a part of a great enterprise. This is not just a feel good ploy, it inspires people to be the best that they can be. A fine example of corporations that jealously grasp their heritage is Harley Davison. Their mission statment "To enhance the Self Esteme of America". Pretty hard to argue that they have failed in that. To make that connection to Norfolk Southern, I can't imagine any employee that would feel a sence of pride at the passing of one of the NS steam specials, and in turn reflect that pride in their work. It says "We are railroaders, and we are in the railroading business"

Your mention of the Great Dismal Swamp incident was back in 86, with none other than Bob Claytor at the throttle. I certainly agree that the 40mph limit was a problem, and also the sheer number of trips could have been reduced. The unfortunate accident with the deadhead excursion consist was also the last straw, but in reality, workable solutions could have been found if they really wanted to look for them.

I also think that they let down a great number of groups that had become almost partners with the steam program. Many of them had invested a great deal of money in their car fleets and vending supplies and they were taken totally by surprise. I find a great deal of simularities between the end of the steam program in 94 with the end of steam for N & W back in 59. Make no mistake about it, they wanted to make sure that no smoke arose from the ashes this time. In the end, I want to thank NS for the opportunity to be a part of two of their specials, one behind the 1218, and the other 587/765 double head. I know that they didn't have to offer the trip to me, and I am very grateful to have had the chance. I do regret that I will not be able to share this with my children.
Steve

SACarlso@scj.com