Greetings,

Well, since I like this board so much along with the people that patronize it, I figure that I will throw this topic at you.

Periodically, there's been an update regarding my project, the Nebraska City, Nebraska roundhouse. We have just stabilized this five stall structure and am moving forward with fundraising.

There's currently no turntable as far as anybody knows. There are rumors that one still exists though buried--once the ground thaws out, I'll find out. It is located near live trackage--an industrial lead. It currently stands on 2-5 acres.

We are just beginning the planning phase. The big question hanging out is, "What are we going to do with this sucker?" Our main objective is to have a self sufficient roundhouse when everything is done and over with. Initially, we were thinking museum. Perhaps a combination restaurant (or any for profit entity) and museum--something that will maximize the potential of this property.

My wildest dreams would dictate an operating museum. I could just imagine a consolidation steaming away inside. Unfortunately, I don't think economics would warrant such an operation.

So let me pose this to you: what should we do with this building to maximize its potential? Use your imagination! Also, if you want to be a tenant, submit a proposal. There is a shortline through town...

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society
www.rypn.org/HRRHS
(under construction with one picture of roundhouse)

Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

Well, Ger, roundhouses make fine amphitheatres too. I wouldn't recommend too much headbanging / heavy metal concerts since the crowds that go to those can tear up the place and have too little disposable income to be worth patronizing - do big band and symphony and hit up the wealthy patrons of those cultural amenities for donations to your historic preservation work. If you can make some good restrooms and catering facilities, private parties and events can rent the space for real $. You won't get the high dollar / skim the cream business you need using outhouses.

Of course, bluegrass, beer and barbecue works well in Savannah. Visitors are too stuffed and mellow to cause trouble or care about outhouses. What is Nebraskan for Bluegrass and BBQ?

Go for a 0-4-0T since it will fit on the TT with other pieces - the 2-8-0 will be a stall queen (assuming you aren't on live track). Then you can do switching demonstrations.

Or, you can build a dome over the structure and make a planetarium.......tweak out the table for a giant centrifuge.......flood it for swimming?

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

There is only one answer for such a rare, historic and unique structure -- it should be restored as an authentic CB&Q roundhouse, housing former CB&Q locomotives and other appropriate equipment. As the folks of the Barrow Hill Engine Shed Society in England have proven, if you restore the building, the equipment will come. I can think of at least two Burlington 4-6-0s that belong there, also a black and gray GP7, which could raise funds through "engineer experience" training. If the turntable is gone, it is quite likely another appropriate one can be found. I know of two CB&Q 100-footers, and shorter Burlington ones still exist also, depending on how big the pit is and the table design.

In my opinion,the further the project departs from historic authenticity, the less credible it will be. Railroading has always been a tough, gritty business, and we should show that as much as possible, short of injuring people. If I were involved in the project, I'd be digging for company old records to learn as many details about the facility as possible, and talking with the few remaining old heads about what used to be where, before it is too late to do so. Until the building is fully restored, you can have all the dog shows, chili cook-offs and flea markets you want, but the untimate goal should always be an authentic CB&Q roundhouse museum.

ryarger1@nycap.rr.com

Greetings,

Dave: I'll definately consider that last option. :)

Bob:

I hear you loud and clear. I would like the same thing, however I have my doubts if such a proposal could be launched.

For instance, how feasible would it be to acquire equipment? Not many are in the donating mood when it comes to the equipment necessary to turn heads (ie rolling stock, locomotives ect.). You are right, there are a handful of locomotives that still exist that have probably been serviced at that roundhouse before. The problem is will the current owners be willing to part with at least one? I don't think Railswest will be too exited over that one. And speaking of railroad museums, we have Railswest, Western Heritage Museum, the coming Union Pacific museum, Stuhr, Boone, and the Fremont & Elkorn Valley Railroad. With that in mind, folks are going to wonder if another museum is necessary or a good idea.

There are some pluses though. There is a former CB&Q 1914 watertower about ten miles away being used for corn storage. A wooden CB&Q caboose exists just north in Plattsmouth on display with a Burlington Northern caboose of currently unknown heritage several blocks away. The original wooden depot exists just feet away from the roundhouse (now used as a residence, but is available). The turntable pit is/was 65 feet in diameter. A turntable of similar size exists in Omaha that appears to have not been used in some time (still owned by the BNSF). Nebraska City has embraced its heritage with many museums that don't pertain to railroading.

The problem is, I have to convince Nebraska City, my main investor, and grant writers (particularly TEA-21) that this proposal will thrive. I don't konw if that can be done without further support. Know anybody that wants to donate any CB&Q material, Nebraska City streetcar material, and general railroad material that relates to that area? If I could successfully propose this, I would. Anybody care to assist?

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society

Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

Creative swapping should acquire the few pieces of equipment you'll need. Not right away, of course, but eventually. Don't acquire inappropriate items unless they are for trade elsewhere. Until the building is restored, you really don't need much of anything, though the GP7 I mentioned could raise some early funds through the engineer experience idea, on a short piece of track.

The other places you mentioned are simply collections of equipment, much of which has little to do with the site it is located at. They are not, nor do they have the potential to become a "Colonial Williamsburg" of steam railroading like your roundhouse does. As I've said numerous times before, a railroad roundhouse in 2001 is a very rare and unique structure. This is different than the multitude of depots, some of which will have to become restaurants, gift shops or information centers to survive.

I've never been to Nebraska City, but from photos and your description, you have a jewel in the rough that deserves nothing less than accurate restoration. Attempting to install a yuppie restaurant or other inappropriate adaption will likely fail as soon as the public's fickle interest changes. Accurate restoration will likely cost less anyway, as the place should retain the soot and grit that has collected over the years. It is mostly fixing the roof, windows and doors and repairing masonry damage.

I am a firm believer that we should save history because it is an important part of who we are. I do not subscribe to the capitalist idea that every project must recover every dollar spent on it directly. Some things should be done just because they should be done, and we taxpayers should support that, within reason.

An authentic roundhouse museum (as opposed to the usual eclectic collections of stuff we call railroad museums) would be a highly unique attraction, that will bring people to your area, to patronize existing restaurants, motels, etc..

To waffle over what to do with the structure will only confuse people and send a mixed message to those who support you, possibly killing the project. I presume we are talking TEA-21 funding here, and a lot of that is spent on projects that are much less worthy. My advice: believe in your dream and disregard the many naysayers within our ranks...

Greetings,

> Dave: I'll definately consider that last
> option. :)

> Bob:

> I hear you loud and clear. I would like the
> same thing, however I have my doubts if such
> a proposal could be launched.

> For instance, how feasible would it be to
> acquire equipment? Not many are in the
> donating mood when it comes to the equipment
> necessary to turn heads (ie rolling stock,
> locomotives ect.). You are right, there are
> a handful of locomotives that still exist
> that have probably been serviced at that
> roundhouse before. The problem is will the
> current owners be willing to part with at
> least one? I don't think Railswest will be
> too exited over that one. And speaking of
> railroad museums, we have Railswest, Western
> Heritage Museum, the coming Union Pacific
> museum, Stuhr, Boone, and the Fremont &
> Elkorn Valley Railroad. With that in mind,
> folks are going to wonder if another museum
> is necessary or a good idea.

> There are some pluses though. There is a
> former CB&Q 1914 watertower about ten
> miles away being used for corn storage. A
> wooden CB&Q caboose exists just north in
> Plattsmouth on display with a Burlington
> Northern caboose of currently unknown
> heritage several blocks away. The original
> wooden depot exists just feet away from the
> roundhouse (now used as a residence, but is
> available). The turntable pit is/was 65 feet
> in diameter. A turntable of similar size
> exists in Omaha that appears to have not
> been used in some time (still owned by the
> BNSF). Nebraska City has embraced its
> heritage with many museums that don't
> pertain to railroading.

> The problem is, I have to convince Nebraska
> City, my main investor, and grant writers
> (particularly TEA-21) that this proposal
> will thrive. I don't konw if that can be
> done without further support. Know anybody
> that wants to donate any CB&Q material,
> Nebraska City streetcar material, and
> general railroad material that relates to
> that area? If I could successfully propose
> this, I would. Anybody care to assist?

> Thanks,
> Gerald Kopiasz, President
> Heartland Railroad Historical Society


ryarger1@nycap.rr.com

We are now talking about two different issues here: purity of vision / mission and fund raising.

TEA21 and almost every other grant I have run across are for capital improvements or specific programming use and can't be used to cover overhead or other operating expenses.

So you need the TEA21 (or whatever) to fund your capital imprvements like equipment and structural restoration / aquisition, but you also need a source of operating revenue.

Most museums find this provided by the gate and gift shop. If you are very fortunate, there may be a local subsidy as a cultural or historic amenity provided you do school groups, etc.

You need events to bring in people and earn you operating costs regardless of capital improvement grants.

I don't disagree with Bob in the least, having hosted (hopeflly) our last destructive rock concert and doggy carnival, but to assume the government will value our work as highly as we know it should be valued and reward us accordingly in this economic and political reality is unrealistic. Unfortunately, the priorities that are easier to sell emotionally to the masses or please constituencies that donate large amounts to reelection campaigns take precedence despite the obvious fact that we are smarter than most Americans and therefore have the only reasonable set of priorities in the country.

So, plan and mission like a preservationist and historian, but operate like a producer with a conscience.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

Greetings,

I can't disagree with you folks. Both Bob and Dave raise good points that will definately be taken into consideration. It would be great if our world was more recognized in the political world, however as Dave says, that's unrealistic.

I think the best way as both mention is the incremental way. The roundhouse would make a good temporary amphitheater (or something of that nature). I do like the rent-a-locomotive scheme. I am contacting ARM and TRAIN for further input.

This just popped in my head thinking of existing "Q" equipment. Do any CB&Q motorcars (ie doodlebugs) exist? I thought there was a least one that was supposedly in bad condition, but I'm probably wrong.

I suppose, while I am on the topic of motorcars, that they (in this case the MOW type) could be incorporated in the experience. Handcars and velocipedes could be options as well.

Here's another idea that could be implemented down the road--contract restoration. Assuming that one could line the expertise up, visitors could be ushered through the work area much like steamtown. Or is the contract market saturated with museums offering this?

George Jenista mentioned creating a synergy with the local shortline. Is anybody familiar with the practices of Kyle Railways?

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society


Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

1. Yes, a CB&Q motorcar does exist, belonging to Minnesota Transportation Museum in the Twin Cities. Cannot remember the number, but it probably has Nebraska-Iowa roots. Some years ago, there was the carbody of a Q motorcar trailer on the ground at Sterling, Colorado. I'm told the wooden enginehouse it sat near was razed in the '80s, so I doubt it is still there, but it might have been sold as an outbuilding, etc.. Motorcar/handcar rides provide a unique experience
and don't cost much to get started.

2. Kyle Railways once had a close association with RR preservation, having operated the C&TS in NM, the California Western, the OP&E in Oregon, the Yreka Western in California, and the LK&P in Hawaii. They also briefly also operated "dessert trains" out of Limon, Colorado on the old Rock Island line. I think they are no longer connected with any of this, though not sure about the LK&P. The company changed a lot in character after Willis Kyle died, so not sure how they would view excursion trains now, but if it provided a little revenue for the shortline, maybe they'd consider it.

> Greetings,

> I can't disagree with you folks. Both Bob
> and Dave raise good points that will
> definately be taken into consideration. It
> would be great if our world was more
> recognized in the political world, however
> as Dave says, that's unrealistic.

> I think the best way as both mention is the
> incremental way. The roundhouse would make a
> good temporary amphitheater (or something of
> that nature). I do like the
> rent-a-locomotive scheme. I am contacting
> ARM and TRAIN for further input.

> This just popped in my head thinking of
> existing "Q" equipment. Do any
> CB&Q motorcars (ie doodlebugs) exist? I
> thought there was a least one that was
> supposedly in bad condition, but I'm
> probably wrong.

> I suppose, while I am on the topic of
> motorcars, that they (in this case the MOW
> type) could be incorporated in the
> experience. Handcars and velocipedes could
> be options as well.

> Here's another idea that could be
> implemented down the road--contract
> restoration. Assuming that one could line
> the expertise up, visitors could be ushered
> through the work area much like steamtown.
> Or is the contract market saturated with
> museums offering this?

> George Jenista mentioned creating a synergy
> with the local shortline. Is anybody
> familiar with the practices of Kyle
> Railways?

> Thanks,
> Gerald Kopiasz, President
> Heartland Railroad Historical Society


ryarger1@nycap.rr.com

Thanks, Bob. I'll keep you folks as things progress. I should get some updated photos of the stabilization to you.

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society


Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

> This just popped in my head thinking of
> existing "Q" equipment. Do any
> CB&Q motorcars (ie doodlebugs) exist? I
> thought there was a least one that was
> supposedly in bad condition, but I'm
> probably wrong.

I would suggest talking to the folks at the Fort Madison Farmington & Western RR (I think that's the name, anyway). This outfit is a very small affair based out of Fort Madison, Iowa. They have some freight cars, a couple of critters - and no less than TWO Edwards motor cars from the Burlington! I think they acquired both as bodies, but have restored one beautifully. They operate it on a regular basis. The other one, though, is only a body. I have no idea about its availability - and I can't honestly say that I would want to part with that thing if I owned it - but they don't seem to have any plans to restore it and you might ask them about it. Good luck!

There is, of course, the Florida company that makes a new version of the Edwards cars for sale. The FM, F & W's operable car has Chicago Transit Authority trucks and a modern engine. The other derelict carbody could probably be faithfully restored with some effort. Edwards trucks appear to be simple weldments from structural steel, and a few Leroi engines can still be found. Drawings of the trucks must still exist, and the California Western has one car that could be copied. Not sure about the mechanical transmissions, which were said to be the cars' weak link. Overall, the Q didn't have very good luck with the Edwards cars and disposed of them early. Thus, for an accurate depiction of the late-steam, early diesel era of the CB&Q, they would probably already be off the property.



ryarger1@nycap.rr.com

Greetings,

Even though we are far from that stage, it would be useful to create some type of list of potential strategic equipment--I use strategic cause I don't want to collect all Q equipment only to successfully similate a deadline.

Even though they didn't last long on the Q, the car could be worthy enough of giving the public an idea of the motorcar era. How many people outside the field know what a doodlebug is? It could come in handy if excursions could be lined up. An additional plus is Edwards being in business. I'd think they offer a driveline that could be used.

Thanks,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society


Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

The FM,F & W is affiliated with Miner Rail Services, there at www.calliopes.com/Miner_Rail_Service. The web site has photos of the restored car, and it also lists the other carbody as being for sale.

Hope this helps
B. Allan


cvsrkahuna@aol.com

Greetings,

Thanks for letting me know. This helps a lot.

Sincerely,
Gerald Kopiasz, President
Heartland Railroad Historical Society

> The FM,F & W is affiliated with Miner
> Rail Services, there at
> www.calliopes.com/Miner_Rail_Service. The
> web site has photos of the restored car, and
> it also lists the other carbody as being for
> sale.

> Hope this helps
> B. Allan


Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com