Railway Preservation News

Locomotive restorations started but abandoned?
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Author:  JG290 [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A&WP 290/SRR 0-4-4RT

1509 would need a new just about everything. She is currently in many pieces all around the property.

As for restoring to service I am not sure this is a good return for the chapter. While it would rate a ten on the cool factor, the grade that exists on the back side of the prooperty would not allow the engine to carry more than about one caboose. The museum has a lot of expansion in the works over the next several years, 10 I would say, and we have another engine on site that would be better for a restoration to service. Cambell Limestone #9, the Heisler, would be a better second steamer. It is light, can pull a good cut on the grade, and as far as comparision to Maud it needs less work. Both would most likely need a new boiler though.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Jason Greene

Author:  tim o'm [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Locomotive restorations started but abandoned?

rev66vette wrote:
OK, I'll bite, but this topic may run on until 2007!!!

1. George Harts ex CP 1098(??) formerly of Jim Thorpe, Pa.

2. O. Winston Links 453.


With such a long thread, this message may be a repeat. However, engine no. 1098 actually DID run in 1995, on the Rail Tours' Jim Thorpe operation, and possibly afterward. It got very little play in the rail press at the time. Of course, it has been disassembled for a long time since it's last run.

As far as CP no. 453, she is in good condition now, outside a hobby shop in Utica, NY. She doesn't run, but sometimes any form of preservation is better than it being in a derelict state.

Author:  Jeff Badger [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fred Kepner's Engine Collection

All of Mr. Kepner's engines are in this shape of disassembly due mostly to tranportation to the various sites where they are being stored. Some that he acquired are aborted attempts from other parties at restoration, while others were operable on various tourist lines in the west.

He has a collection of some very significant motive power that someday might become the core of a museum or distributed to other entities that would like to repatriate a local piece of history.

I am sure that Martin Hansen can elaborate if he wants to as he is close to the owner of these steamers.

Remeber - NO FLAMES!


Author:  Les Beckman [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Locomotive restorations started but abandoned?

The Coopersville & Marne Railway in Michigan acquired ex-CN 4-6-0 # 1395 to restore to operation. Don't know if this restoration was ever started or not so perhaps she doesn't belong on this list. Anyone know her current status?


Author:  Finderskeepers [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Locomotive restorations started but abandoned?

I think perhaps the most obvious one would be Norfolk and Western 1218, which was pretty deep into a rebuild when the axe fell. She was never finished, but cosmetically restored and sent to the Virginia Museum of Transport, where although she looks good, is somewhat hollow. Too bad, not a fitting end to the "mercedes of steam".
Does anyone know what happened to the restoration attempt on AT&SF 3463? Haven't heard anything about that one in a long time.

Author:  Ken Middlebrook [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2479 update

[quote="Jeff Badger"]SP#2479 at San Jose. Slow progress if any due to potential removal from restoration location in near future.

The crew continues to make progress toward rewheeling the locomotive at our present location. Last weekend, track was laid out to enable rolling the rebuilt trailing truck underneath the locomotive frame. Recent focus has been toward form4 boiler documentation and rebuiliding brake rigging components.

Over the last month, we have met several times with city of San Jose representatives and have several additional meetings scheduled over the next month. At this time, we must refrain from publicly discussing the details; nonetheless, our proposed museum IS gaining momentum.

Ken Middlebrook
California Trolley and Railroad Corporation.

Author:  ebtrr [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Locomotive restorations started but abandoned?

EBT #6 at the Whiewater Valley. Disassembled since the mid-80's. Fortunately I understand the removed pieces are stored inside. They also have disassembled prarie and saddletanker there. Good luck to them in their museum plans.

Also D&RG #318 at the Colorado Railroad Museum.

EBT #6 in 1999:


Author:  Ron Travis [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Locomotive restorations started but abandoned?

Anybody have an update on M&StL 2-8-0 #471 at Annandale, MN?


Author:  Dave [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A&WP 290/SRR 0-4-4RT

Les Beckman wrote:

Interesting that you should mention Southern # 1509 "Maud." Not sure what kind of mechanical shape she is in. Has anyone at SERM ever seriously checked her out?


Yes. About a decade ago I was retained to survey her along with a few other pieces. That's when I first met Jason, who was kind enough to follow me around to lift this and hold that end of the tape, etc. My old war stories probably finished the job of ruining his life by encouraging him to get into railroad preservation.

Maud would require a new boiler and complete running gear reconstruction from frame out, including some substantial work on the frame. That done, I would probably increase Andrew's estimate to two cabeese, with a run at the hill. The old boiler is a fascinating hodge-podge of repairs using different techniques, and would make a fine display in itself as a living history of boilermaking evolution.

The history and original size and shape of this engine are subject to debate - the most credible source I have seen indicates built as a 4-6-0, if memory serves. Turning that into a 0-4-4 turntable goat must have been a job - if that is in fact what really happened.

I'd like to see her would used as a display in disassembled (but not sectioned) condition, at least on one side, to let visitors see "inside" a steam chest, etc. as if she was actually in for overhaul. SERM will no doubt do what they think best in the long run, and there is no rationale for front-burnering this one given their current goals.

I'd second the thought of the Heisler as a right-sized site demonstration engine. I never saw the boiler nekkid so whether it would need to be replaced, or just repaired, I don't know.

SERM has come a LONG way in the past 20 years. Looking forward to seeing what is next.


Author:  Ted Miles [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Perceptions, was stalled locomotives in CA

I would like to point that there is a place for the preservation of steam locomotives without running them.

Take for example the Central Pacific now at the CAlifornia state RR Museum. The locomotive was erected in the building that is going to be their Museum of Railroad Technology way back in 1883.

It and the IC 201 at IRM are the only commuter engines in the country. As far as I know, they do not plan to run their locomotive either.

There is a Chicago elevated engine at the Museum of Transport in St Louis. This forney is also static.

Static displays can and will be the way to see and touch steam engines as the years go by. Because the few existing main line or Class 1 railroads in the US do not want to have steam, especially foreign steam on their rails!

Unless you like small narrow gauge locomotives, they are the only area that is increasing the number of operational steam engines.

Ted Miles

Author:  jasonsobczynski [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A&WP 290/SRR 0-4-4RT

Maud-new boiler no doubt! And the history has one small tid-bit missing, she atarted out life as a narrow gauge engine according to southern railway records...yes, previous administration tracked this down well beyond the point of reasonable doubt. Many parts of this locomotive have been altered to get to where it is now including:frame(long list), boiler lengthened or shortened(don't recall which, though it is not the original boiler anyhow), stroke increased by means of installing "eccentric" crank pins(which begs the question of which is not original-drivers, cylinders or both) among other things.
Part of mauds history that should be pointed out is that the initial restration attempt was started at the Irondale(spelling?) steam shop back....well a really long time ago. It was sent down to have a full operational overhaul performed then the boiler condition was disovered. Change gears, then a cosmetic restoration...then nothing ever happened and it was shipped back to southeastern in pieces. It was then further taken apart so that it could be moved from the old site, long story but it had to be done.
The Heisler would not need a new boiler lest it has deteriorated greatly in the last ten years of sitting under cover. The (what at the time was)illegally installed/unapproved flush patch in the belly of the first course would most likely be OK since all records for procedure still exist, but ONLY IF carbon testing revealed that all was below .25%.......and even then there are possibilities. She does need a new crown sheet and lower sides for sure, the rest (according to wilson boiler) was well above minimum limits. Besides, even if the loki needs a new firebox entirely(inside sheets that is) and a front tube bundle replacement this is not a big deal. The most expensive aspect of the heisler would be the running gear, it is so very beyond worn out.
Would be a very fun restoration though!

Author:  Jeff Badger [ Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2479 update

Ken, thanks for the update. This is good news. I know how hard it is to keep up a website and when I have been over to the worksite, not much seems to be happening so again we appreciate the update, and as it was hoped by mentioning these locomotives that their representatives would update us.


Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another saddletank

John and Barney Gramling restored Flagg Coal 0-4-0T # 2 which is now at Owosso, Michigan. The Gramling's had also torn down another Vulcan; ex-Lehigh Valley Coal Company 0-6-0T # 126. Has this later project been abandoned or if not, where does it stand?

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

Author:  bobyar2001 [ Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Will we live long enough?

I don't think anyone involved in any of these stalled locomotive restorations had any idea when they started that they would get stalled for years afterward. Some were hopelessly myopic, but there was no bad intent. The question is, however, will they all get reassembled before we die? Some major parts have already been lost in the shuffle, and for those engines, they would have been better off had restoration never started. I too was part of this "let's make 'em run" bunch in the heady 80's, but changed my tune when funding (which in many cases wasn't really there anyway) started drying up. If we could just manage to get them back together and under cover, we'd be accomplishing a minor miracle today.

Author:  Bob Kutella [ Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not Limited to Locos

Will we live long enough - posed by Bob Yarger. A very good question but probably (surely) not limited to locos. Same situation exists to some extent with the other pieces of 'preserved' equipment including passenger cars, trolleys, etc.

When a piece is acquired, those involved rarely have experience in rebuilding, in accurately assessing the scope of needed work, or in estimating needed funding and resources. This is more of an observation than a criticism, as the 'passion' for such a project is a critical element of making it happen.

But it would sure be nice NOT to have the first task be the 'demolition' of the piece. Some disassembly is often required to know the condition, but then perhaps it should be loosely reassembled pending actually doing the work. Then one step or task at a time.

I recently passed the milepost of getting a very 'skeletal' trolley car complete enough to operate on its own and carry passengers - after over three DECADES of work. No, not full time, but continuous effort mixed in with other Museum projects. Even with the effort to take pics, keep notes and drawings, nobody has that good a memory.

So in large part, doing one seat and frame, one window, one roof end, etc. is as much responsible for getting to the end point as anything else.


Bob Kutella

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