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 Post subject: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:39 pm
Posts: 52
Hello Does anyone have any pictures of the heavyweight John Greenleaf Whittier in service and any interior/exterior pictures of the 12-1 sleeper Thanks Roger


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:38 pm
Posts: 46
I have no pictures to add but I eagerly await any that may be posted. Spent a lot of time running through the cars behind 578 and all over that museum.


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:43 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 2279
HW Plan 3410B 12 Sect - 1 DR, as PRR:
Edit: there are four others on RR Picture Archives, apparently it was an IOU Pacific/ SLRG car at one time: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPict ... id=1110037


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 5:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3911
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
A fellow named Tom Madden has a wonderful Pullman car database, largely based on construction records. This car, the John Greenleaf Whittier, seems to have had a relatively ordinary existence as such cars go, with no name changes, retaining its plan 3410B configuration for its entire life, and apparently always assigned to the PRR from the time it was new ln January of 1929. It was part of Lot 6220, 16 cars, all named for famous men (most of them writers), and all originally assigned to the PRR. It got ice air conditioning in February of 1934 (the photo above and the others indicate internal ducts) and was sold to "PRR LTP" ("LTP" looks like a common listing for a subsidiary to own former Pullmans). No date is given, but it can be assumed to be the time of the Pullman breakup in 1948. Final retirement seems to be 1967.

I find it fascinating that a pretty standard, common 12-1 survived that long, running on the same road it had originally been assigned, and doing so without significant changes, especially considering how many people were turning their noses up at sections as far back as the 1940s.

And she still survives today.

Mr. Madden's Pullman Project page.

http://www.pullmanproject.com/


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 6:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 520
"........and was sold to "PRR LTP" ("LTP" looks like a common listing for a subsidiary to own former Pullmans)...."

LTP means "Leased to Pullman" (the Pullman Company).


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 6:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3911
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Topfuel wrote:
"........and was sold to "PRR LTP" ("LTP" looks like a common listing for a subsidiary to own former Pullmans)...."

LTP means "Leased to Pullman" (the Pullman Company).


Thanks for the correction, I now know something I didn't before!


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 9:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
Tom Madden provides this information on his page "Keys to Description" which explains all of the columns in the database.

Quote:
Disposition: Rebuilt (to a different Plan number), Converted (to a numbered Tourist car), Transferred (to NYC for scrapping), Sold, Withdrawn, Wrecked or Destroyed (Pullman’s term for in-house scrapping).

Disposition 2: Fate of the car upon leaving Pullman ownership. (LTP = "Leased to Pullman".)

Disposition Date: Date car left Pullman ownership. For post-W.W.II lightweight cars built for RR ownership, this field shows the Service Date. When only the year, or only the month of disposition is known, the entry shows 1st of the year, or month.

WFL Date: Date Withdrawn From Lease, for those cars sold to railroads and leased back to Pullman for operation.

Additional Disposition Information: Expands on car dispositions as needed. RTPL=Returned to Pullman lease; RTP=Returned to Pullman ownership.

The cars leased to Pullman were both the lightweight and heavyweight cars in regular service. Cars not taken into railroad ownership remained in a general Pullman pool for extra car service as needed. The transfer of sleeping cars to the railroads was a result of the separation of the Pullman manufacturing and sleeping car operations.

My understanding is that the new operating company was jointly owned by the railroads utilizing the service. The railroads were allowed to take into their ownership a portion of the Pullman heavyweight fleet that reflected their ownership interest in the new operating company.

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Brian Norden


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 10:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
Brian Norden wrote:
My understanding is that the new operating company was jointly owned by the railroads utilizing the service. The railroads were allowed to take into their ownership a portion of the Pullman heavyweight fleet that reflected their ownership interest in the new operating company.


I believe the cars were SOLD to the railroads, and that was how the new Pullman Sleeping Car Co. was capitalized. To prevent a feeding frenzy with the stronger roads buying all the best cars, the court approved plan only allowed each railroad to buy cars that were operating on their lines as of a certain date, 1/1/45, IIRC. The railroads were then free to operate the cars themselves, if they so desired. But most railroads were not unhappy with the Pullman operation, so they leased the cars back to Pullman, and things continued pretty much as they had before.

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Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 11:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:54 pm
Posts: 199
Looks like this car ended up with the Iowa Pacific, and is now for sale for $40K. Anyone know if it's been purchased?


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 7:55 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:18 am
Posts: 160
Location: B'more MD
Besides the upfront of the cost, I am told there are significant 5-figure "storage charges" being assessed by the IPH railroad, which is also in bankruptcy. Two trustees milking it for all they can get for their respective clients.

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George F.Payne
Baltimore, MD


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 10:17 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
IPH was charging it’s own subsidiary for storage? Taking money out of one hand to put it in the other? I thought it was one blanket bankruptcy under IPH and the trustee was appointed to sell off the “leasing” company’s assets. What a mess.

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Eric Schlentner
Turner of Wrenches, Drawer of Things


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 Post subject: Re: John Greenleaf Whittier
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 10:49 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1742
Location: Back in NE Ohio
My understanding, as incomplete as it is, is that when something is sold at a sheriff's or bankruptcy sale, the seller - trustee, etc. - gets whatever the auction brings in and can't demand extra "storage fees" or anything else from the buyer. Storage was an issue for the previous bankrupt owning party, not the purchaser, and the estate takes whatever it can get for the item.


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