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 Post subject: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5223
Recently I ran across a photo on a website which showed a Ford Motor Company 0-6-0 (#36) in IOWA of all places! The 0-6-0 was obviously being shipped somewhere, its main rod removed and some type of wood construction in or near the coal bunker of the tender. The date was July of 1947, and the engine still had its chrome number on the cab and the large "Ford" in chrome script on its tender. It was coupled to some car in front of it and behind its tender was a C&NW cupola caboose. I cannot believe it was being sent all the way to Iowa for scrapping, when there would have been plenty of places in the industrial Detroit area (where it worked at the Ford River Rouge plant) that could have done it. It IS possible I suppose, that is was being sent somewhere for continued work, maybe at another Ford plant (what did they have out west in those days?) or had been sold to some industrial operation or short line. But it would seem that there would have been better options available in mid-1947 than an ancient old slide valve 0-6-0. Might the locomotive have been going to some museum somewhere? That never got off the ground or later failed, and the engine subsequently scrapped? It's a long shot for sure, but does anyone know?

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:13 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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I got a question today about this photo of Ford Motor Company 0-6-0 #36 and asked if I could post the photo. Well, I remember the picture, but I posted the thread back in February of 2007 and I cannot recall where I had seen it on the web. Maybe no one knows the answer to why the Ford 0-6-0 was on that train in Iowa and to where it was going, but perhaps someone else has seen the photo and knows where it is posted on the internet. If so....please chime in! Thanks.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:17 pm
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Location: Ballard, WA
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http://transport.castlegraphics.com/displayimage.php?album=36&pos=59

Found the picture in question.


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:59 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:29 am
Posts: 316
Location: Schuylkill County, PA
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Found this other Ford 0-6-0..


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Here is a photo listed for sale, with date 1946.

Source http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/d-726484/1946-ford-motor-co-train-engine-0-6-0-snapshot-photograph.html


Attachments:
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Steven Harrod
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Danmarks Tekniske Universitet
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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 1976
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Funny, how the angle of the picture makes the engine look. Same engine, but one looks tall and proud, and the other looks small and weak.

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Steven Harrod
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Danmarks Tekniske Universitet
Institut for Systemer, Produktion, og Ledelse


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:17 pm
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Location: Ballard, WA
Is it just me or are the proportions on the 0-6-0 a little, umm off? The face only a mother could love.

Note the steps behind the pilot. Most "Ford-ized" locomotives had them.


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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Chris Salmonson wrote:
Is it just me or are the proportions on the 0-6-0 a little, umm off? The face only a mother could love.

Note the steps behind the pilot. Most "Ford-ized" locomotives had them.


Chris -

First of all, thanks for finding, and posting, the photo of Ford 0-6-0 #36 on that train in Iowa. As I recall, the photo I saw was in color (slide?) but I am sure that this is the same picture. And Steven, the Ford 0-6-0 photo that you posted is NOT the same locomotive as the one in Iowa! Note the domes. Definitely different, although the two engines may well have been sisters on their original railroad (Ford purchased use locomotives except for 4 brand new 0-8-0's). I am 99.9% certain that the engine in the other photo is number 35, rather than 36. My screen is too small to be certain of the engine number on the cab, however, there is a photo of number 35 in Jerry Pinkepank's book of Emery Gulash photos "Trackside around Detroit Downriver 1946-1976" being used on a Michigan Railroad Club tour of Ford's River Rouge plant in June of 1946. And the domes on that locomotive are the same. In your photo Steven, note the folks over to the right. Most certainly part of the crowd that day. Finally Chris, I think the 0-6-0 has a nice "face" and I only wish it was still around.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Chris Salmonson wrote:
Is it just me or are the proportions on the 0-6-0 a little, umm off? The face only a mother could love.

Note the steps behind the pilot. Most "Ford-ized" locomotives had them.


To my eyes, the proportions of both locomotives look like they may have originally been 2-6-0s, and have had their leading trucks amputated. Drivers are rather tall for a switcher of that vintage, and the pilot beam extends fairly far out for a switcher as well. No. 36 is also pretty lacking in sanding gear for a switcher, with but a single pipe leading to the forward drivers. The perforated jacket on the firebox of 36 suggests C&NW practice--which also brings up the C&NW caboose in that photo, with passenger type trucks and blanked cupola windows. The cabs of both engines are a mystery to me, though; don't know of any road that had a low, flat-looking cab like that with all those windows.

If the 0-8-0s were the only new engines Ford got, I wonder what the background of the other power would have been, including these two?

Interesting that the Ford plant in England had at least one dedicated switcher as well. Perhaps a British viewer can tell us something of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:05 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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J3a-614 wrote:
Chris Salmonson wrote:
Is it just me or are the proportions on the 0-6-0 a little, umm off? The face only a mother could love.

Note the steps behind the pilot. Most "Ford-ized" locomotives had them.


To my eyes, the proportions of both locomotives look like they may have originally been 2-6-0s, and have had their leading trucks amputated. Drivers are rather tall for a switcher of that vintage, and the pilot beam extends fairly far out for a switcher as well. No. 36 is also pretty lacking in sanding gear for a switcher, with but a single pipe leading to the forward drivers. The perforated jacket on the firebox of 36 suggests C&NW practice--which also brings up the C&NW caboose in that photo, with passenger type trucks and blanked cupola windows. The cabs of both engines are a mystery to me, though; don't know of any road that had a low, flat-looking cab like that with all those windows.


My guess is that perhaps the cab roofs were lowered by Ford due to clearance restrictions at the plant.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:55 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:29 am
Posts: 316
Location: Schuylkill County, PA
Les Beckman wrote:

My guess is that perhaps the cab roofs were lowered by Ford due to clearance restrictions at the plant.

Les


Seems odd, the domes and stack are both taller than the cab roof.


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 482
Foreign locomotive, perhaps? It just doesn't look right in general, and it definitely looks like 36 had a pilot truck at one point in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5223
J3a-614 wrote:

To my eyes, the proportions of both locomotives look like they may have originally been 2-6-0s, and have had their leading trucks amputated. Drivers are rather tall for a switcher of that vintage, and the pilot beam extends fairly far out for a switcher as well.


I think you may be on to something. I did a little digging and came up with a photo on this site:

http://www.waverlyinfo.com/page/6614/D-T-I-Steam-Engine

Lots of photos of DT&I steam locomotives on this site but the one that caught my eye was 4-6-0 #84 built by Baldwin in January of 1904. The photo was taken in 1932 and the engine looks like it could be out of service. Might the DT&I converted some of these Ten-Wheelers to 0-6-0's? And since Ford also owned the DT&I at that time, might at least 2 of these converted engines be the ones that ended up working at the Ford plant? Wish I could have just shown the photo of number 84, so sorry for all the additional photos on the site. The set up of the boiler of the 84 matches up pretty well with the 0-6-0's and even the tender looks similar. And all those cab windows look similar too. The cab is too tall, but maybe it was "cut down" for some reason other than clearances. The drivers seem further forward so that the 4 wheel pony truck doesn't look like it would "fit", but perhaps the rebuild was a bit more than just lopping off that lead truck, which might also explain the long pilot beam. Don't know if this is what happened; only suggesting the possibility. Any DT&I steam experts here on RyPN?

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
One feature I noticed is that the front drivers and rear drivers on the top photo do not appear equidistant. In itself that's not unusual, but the spacing of the front and middle drivers appears slightly wider than that of the middle and rear drivers. Usually the wider spacing (if present) would be under the firebox.

This could just be an optical illusion in the photo, but if it's true it could be of help in identifying the locomotive's origin.

The low cab is definitely unusual. Could it be a cab from some other locomotive, used to replace an original wooden cab?

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3236
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Les Beckman wrote:
I think you may be on to something. I did a little digging and came up with a photo on this site:

http://www.waverlyinfo.com/page/6614/D-T-I-Steam-Engine

Lots of photos of DT&I steam locomotives on this site but the one that caught my eye was 4-6-0 #84 built by Baldwin in January of 1904. The photo was taken in 1932 and the engine looks like it could be out of service. Might the DT&I converted some of these Ten-Wheelers to 0-6-0's? And since Ford also owned the DT&I at that time, might at least 2 of these converted engines be the ones that ended up working at the Ford plant? Wish I could have just shown the photo of number 84, so sorry for all the additional photos on the site. The set up of the boiler of the 84 matches up pretty well with the 0-6-0's and even the tender looks similar. And all those cab windows look similar too. The cab is too tall, but maybe it was "cut down" for some reason other than clearances. The drivers seem further forward so that the 4 wheel pony truck doesn't look like it would "fit", but perhaps the rebuild was a bit more than just lopping off that lead truck, which might also explain the long pilot beam. Don't know if this is what happened; only suggesting the possibility. Any DT&I steam experts here on RyPN?

Les


Les, that's an interesting possibility, although I don't think this engine would be a rebuild of something like that Baldwin 4-6-0, or if it was, it was quite a bit of money on old iron! Evidence is the boiler taper (very different from that of the 0-6-0), different driver axle spacing (and as Steve Hunter noted, it has a longer space between axles 1 and 2 than between 2 and 3, while the 4-6-0 has the more common wider spacing between 2 and 3), and the domes are typical of Baldwin.

On the other hand, thanks to you finding those DT&I photos, I would definitely say this locomotive was from that road. Besides the Ford ownership connection, we have cabs that look a lot like that one with those windows, there are some engines in the DT&I collection that have the perforated firebox jacket (something I thought only C&NW did to ease staybolt inspection), and those steps behind the pilot beam (which are also on the 4-6-0, a variety of 2-8-0s, and the Russian Decapods). Between the cab, domes, steps, perforated firebox jacket and the tender, this locomotive looks most like some Brooks 2-8-0s from around the same time as the Baldwin (ca. 1905).

https://www.cgs-images.com/manager/1355 ... 24_57.jpeg

Looks like one of those girls is still around; sure was spiffy in Henry Ford's day:

https://www.cgs-images.com/manager/1355 ... 24_57.jpeg

Caption:

"D T & I Engine # 94 a class 2-8-0 at Leipsic Depot. Showing the train crew, agent and telegraphy operator. 2nd from right is Erv Addy and 4th from right is a Murphy. This engine was later in the Henry Ford Museum."

The only problem is, I can't find any photos of late 1890s-early 1900s era Brooks 2-6-0s on the DT&I, indeed can't find anything about the DT&I rostering 2-6-0s at all. Of course, this road seems to be one that is a bit on the obscure side compared with some others; its best known steam locomotives are the late 2-8-4s and the (interestingly) newer 2-8-2s that resembled smaller NKP 2-8-4s with enclosed cabs.

Now, who among the readers here is a DT&I steam specialist who can answer our questions?


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