It is currently Mon May 21, 2018 11:15 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5223
One thing I asked back in 2007 when I started this thread, was whether the Ford Motor Company had any plants out west where the FORD 0-6-0 shown in-transit westbound in Iowa in 1947, might have been going. Now in a new thread on AH&D small 7-1/2 ton cranes is one that is shown as going to Ford in Seattle, Washington back in 1930. That got me on the trail again and I found out that, in addition to the plant in Seattle, Ford also had four plants in California and one in Oregon! If one (or more) of these plants was served by the Union Pacific, a routing of 0-6-0 #36 over the C&NW makes sense as that would have been the logical road in 1947 to get the switcher over to the UP for shipment further west.

Anyway, a long winded update to solve a little question on an old thread.

Les


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1524
Location: Southern California
Les,
According to a Wikipedia List of Ford factories the following locations are candidates:
Code:
Location                 years
Richmond, California    1930-1956
Long Beach, California  1930-1959
Also on the page are "Branch Assembly Plants" both in California and other western States. Most of these are without dates.

From my limited observations, it seems that a number of automobile manufacturers had West Coast (and maybe in other parts of the country) assembly plants. At one time automobile body shells and other components were shipped by rail to assembly locations. It must have been cheaper to ship parts and assemble them closer to the sales locations.

At the bottom of the Wikipedia page is a list of references and one links to a site that explains the Ford branch assembly system in some detail.

_________________
Brian Norden


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:36 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm
Posts: 534
The Ford assembly plant in Richmond, CA, was served by the Santa Fe. However, there were interchanges between Santa Fe and SP in the area.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:36 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:50 am
Posts: 76
At Fallen flags we see a DT&I 4-6-0 #85 which matches up pretty well with the Ford locomotive. Valve gear, cylinders, stack, domes, bell, turbo and cab details are in the right place. Maybe an Alco/Schenectady based on the builders plate shape. The front end frame could have been shortened when it lost its pilot truck.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/dti/dti-s0085ggC.jpg


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:21 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:07 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Abbots Langley, Herts, United Kingdom
The tank engine shown in the fourth post is of one of the steam locos at Ford's Dagenham Plant in England, which is on the north bank of the River Thames east of London. None of their steam locos survive, but one of the three Bo-Bo diesel electric shunters built in 1932 does.


Attachments:
10A18 (small).jpg
10A18 (small).jpg [ 38.88 KiB | Viewed 712 times ]
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:27 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3236
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Check out this one from the Waverly photo site--proportions are right, has the low cab, though domes suggest Baldwin. Stack looks cut down, too.

Image

My conclusion is our "mystery" engine is a former 2-6-0, possibly from Alco-Brooks based on the dome shapes.

Now if only we could get a confirmation of that!


Last edited by J3a-614 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:36 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3236
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Here is the whole Waverly set.

https://www.waverlyinfo.net/d-t---i-ste ... nes-1.html

The general home page:

https://www.waverlyinfo.net/

Ooh, ooh, ooh, a history page, and check out some of the headings--nine of them just for the DT&I (and one of which is for the steam engines):

https://www.waverlyinfo.net/more-links.html

This is the "DT&I in Pictures;" if this sample is any indication, the other links are worth exploring.

https://www.waverlyinfo.net/d-t---i-pictures.html


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:51 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5223
J3a-614 wrote:
Check out this one from the Waverly photo site--proportions are right, has the low cab, though domes suggest Baldwin. Stack looks cut down, too.

Image

My conclusion is our "mystery" engine is a former 2-6-0, possibly from Alco-Brooks based on the dome shapes.

Now if only we could get a confirmation of that!


J3a-614:

With those "Baldwin-like" domes, DT&I Mogul #60 sure looks like it could have been made into Ford 0-6-0 #35, a photo of which was submitted by Steven Harrod back on 10/1/13. So perhaps the DT&I had another 2-6-0 with simpler domes that was converted into 0-6-0 #36.

Les


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:05 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2213
Location: Northern Illinois
J3a-614 wrote:
Check out this one from the Waverly photo site--proportions are right, has the low cab, though domes suggest Baldwin. Stack looks cut down, too.


DT&I 16, the 4-4-0 that the Ford Museum traded to IRM for the B&LE 2-8-0, also has that squat cab, and the stack also looks cut down. The story was, when it went to the museum the stack was too high to clear the door where they wanted to store it, so it was "trimmed" to fit. At this late date the story is unconfirmed. I see in the photo of DT&I 60 above, the stack is covered and the main rod removed. I wonder if that engine also went to the museum?

_________________
Dennis Storzek


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:07 pm
Posts: 201
I notice a very strong family resemblance between Ford 0-6-0 36 and a pair of Detroit Southern 2-8-0's that had been built by Rhode Island in 1902 and sold by DT&I to the Bellefonte Central in 1930 via Birmingham Rail & Locomotive Company. They became Bellefonte Central 16 and 17. Number 16 eventually became Middletown & Unionville, but number 17 was retained by Bellefonte Central until she was scrapped around 1947-8. Many years ago I talked to retired Bellefonte Central engineer Hassel Meyer about his experiences. He said that Ford's DT&I had upgraded the locomotives with the highest quality materials, including stainless steel feedwater piping.

Tom


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5223
Dennis Storzek wrote:

I see in the photo of DT&I 60 above, the stack is covered and the main rod removed. I wonder if that engine also went to the museum?


Dennis -

If it DID go to the museum, wonder what happened to it? Perhaps a more logical explanation is that the 60 was going over to Ford, for conversion. Did Ford do their own locomotive work?

Les


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3236
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Les Beckman wrote:
Dennis Storzek wrote:

I see in the photo of DT&I 60 above, the stack is covered and the main rod removed. I wonder if that engine also went to the museum?


Dennis -

If it DID go to the museum, wonder what happened to it? Perhaps a more logical explanation is that the 60 was going over to Ford, for conversion. Did Ford do their own locomotive work?

Les


Apparently Ford did do locomotive work. That somewhat infamous 4-4-0, Edison No. 1, was rebuilt from an ancient 0-4-0T to the small American type it is now; the senior Mr. Ford wanted a Mason 4-4-0, and this was his way of getting it.

Image

Image

The second image above, and the notes below, are from www.steamlocomotive.info. It's interesting to look at all the "old wives' tales" in those notes.

Quote:

Here are the notes for Greenfield Village RR No. 1 "Edison", a 4-4-0 located in Dearborn, MI

If you have additional information about this locomotive, and would like to share it, click the Add Note button.

Posted: 2016-02-12 19:25:25.023 by carl riff
St Thomas times journal reports September 1, 1928 that michigan central pulls old Catskill Mountain engine going to the Henry Ford passed through St Thomas pulled by Michigan central engine 7943.

Posted: 2016-02-12 19:25:24.29 by carl riff
St Thomas times journal reports September 1, 1928 that michigan central pulls old Catskill Mountain engine going to the Henry Ford passed through St Thomas pulled by Michigan central engine 7943.

Posted: 2011-05-26 13:24:20.217 by
right now the edison is haveing its drive pipe replaced after a test whas down. When they pulled out the drive pipe they found that it rusted a hole in it hard to keep steam presser that way.

Posted: 2008-10-01 12:16:36.813 by MUSA
The Edison also had her whistle changed from one time a single chime, then to I believe a 6-chime, and now she sports a 5-chime.

Posted: 2007-12-27 07:17:16.723 by Matthew G
Here is the truth behind the Edison. It was not built with spare parts they had laying around. It was not built in 1961. It is not the Detroit & Lima Northern #7 later the DT&I #7 which was Henry's personal locomotive. It was not rebuilt using parts from the #3 Torch Lake. The Edison was an 0-4-0 built by the Manchester Locomotive Works in the 1870's. It was given to Henry Ford by Thomas Alva Edison who had the locomotive in his New Jersey quarry. It was rebuilt by Henry Ford in 1932 in the Rouge shops to represent an 1800's William Mason. The locomotive had been on display in the Henry Ford Museum from 1932 until the early 1960's. It was then placed into regular service in Greenfield Village. The loco was originally oil-fired but was converted to burn coal in the early 1980's. The baloon stack was replaced with a diamond stack in 1993. The wood pilot was also replaced by a steel pilot. In 1997 the old wood cab was replaced with a steel riveted cab. In 2004 the diamond stack was replaced with a straight stack. In 2005 a new cylinder was cast and machined to replace the old one which developed a crack. The eccentric lobes were also replaced and the locomotive re-timed in 2005. In 2007-08 the tires were replaced.

Posted: 2007-10-30 14:31:15.733 by Isaac
the photo in the roundhouse was taken in 2004 when this loco was in for work most of the year.the edison now runs reularly on the weiser railway at greenfield village with 0-6-2T torch lake.

Posted: 2006-03-04 22:44:37.29 by John Rahrig
1932 “Edison” Ford Motor Co. 4-4-0 No. 1 - This locomotive is a rebuilt locomotive form old steam locomotive parts. The Ford Motor Company built the locomotive at the Rouge Locomotive Shop, in Dearborn, Michigan in 1932. It was later named “Edison” after Henry Ford’s friend and hero, Thomas Eva Edison. The Edison is an American type locomotive based on locomotives from the post-American Civil War period. This locomotive currently provides daily service for the Greenfield Village Railroad.

Posted: 2005-02-24 13:07:18.15 by Daniel Maxwell
How is that possible? The villiage (nor Ford) owned torch lake #3 until decades later. I seem to remember that the torch lake was on display at the C&H mining offices.

Posted: 2004-05-01 12:15:55.49 by Chris Elpatric
This locomotive was actually built in 1932 By Henry Ford and this locomotive was his favorite. Henry named this engine after his friend Thomas Edison. The locomotive was built from spare and unneeded parts from other steam locomotives like Torchlake #3.

Posted: 2003-08-27 19:24:59.57 by Kashi Chris Gupta
The Ford Motor Company locomotive #1 (currently Edison) was built in 1961 and ran only at the Greenfield Village Railroad. It origanaly said Ford Motor Company until 1997 when it was overhauled and had it's name changed to Edison. This locomotive has been operational for many years and it was never on display.

Posted: 2003-08-27 19:13:06.653 by Kashi Chris Gupta

Posted: 2003-08-09 22:59:51.117 by Jon Baxter
The Edison at Greenfield Village in Deaborn, Mich. was built by the shop at the Village from from parts they had

Posted: 2003-06-26 23:37:54.46 by Michael Ledingham
The Ford Motor Co. 4-4-0 #1 is operational, and named Edison. The 4-4-0 #1 lettered for LS&MS is actually from the Detroit and Lima Northern, and is being restored (its actual number may be 7). It is the one built in 1873 that used to operate.

Posted: 2003-06-21 20:28:12.56 by Michael Ledingham
One of the 4-4-0 #1s at the Henry Ford Museum was built by and for the Ford Motor Co. The other one is lettered for the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, which is apparently bogus. Also, one of them was built in 1873 and used to operate around the grounds of Greenfield Village, but I don't know which.


Compared to what was done for this locomotive, a shopping to make a switcher would be minor work.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:16 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:18 am
Posts: 414
Location: San Francisco
While not adding to the knowledge of Ford locomotives, I thought some might be interested in the current exhibit "Cult of the Machine" at San Francisco's deYoung Museum http://deyoung.famsf.org/exhibitions/cult-machine. A significant collection of early-20thC machine-inspired American art are included in this show.

The show includes a number of works by Charles Sheeler, including this painting of Ford's River Rouge plant
Image

While not related to Ford, these disc drivers are featured in another of Sheeler's paintings currently at the deYoung
Image

_________________
Randolph Ruiz
Architect


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5223
Randolph -

Like both of Mr. Sheeler's paintings. The one on the River Rouge plant shows a steam switcher but the cab roofs looks a bit different than the 0-6-0's in this thread. Can't quite see the wheel arrangement of the engine in that painting, but perhaps there is enough detail for someone to make it out.

I'm still not sure if the Ford Motor Company at that plant, had a shop that was capable of turning a Mogul into an 0-6-0, or if it was done at the DT&I shops at behest of the company.

Les


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ford 0-6-0 mystery
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:15 am
Posts: 40
Location: Detroit, MI
Ford modified many locomotives in his Rouge plant locomotive shop. The most well known is probably the "Edison" 4-4-0 posted above, built out of an early Manchester 0-4-0 in 1931/32. While doing research in the Benson Ford Research Center in Dearborn a few weeks ago, I stumbled across some other "custom" locomotives by Ford including what appeared to be a narrow gauge 4-4-2 Atlantic. It looked to have been a converted 0-4-0 tank engine that was given a tender which appeared to be a small scale version of the Michigan Central 4-4-2's Ford bought second hand for the DT&I. The Grant 2-6-0 in the Sanfillipo collection in Illinois was also a Ford modification, having been converted to standard gauge and modernized to be used as a switching locomotive at the Rouge plant. It was later backdated and placed in his museum before it was sold off. He was also known to have modified a shay to have a centered boiler, vs the standard offset one (possibly another narrow to standard gauge conversion?). Conversions by Ford were definitely known to happen and he seemed to have a thing for trying to get the most out of smaller locomotives according to a couple books on the DT&I I've read.

As an example, here is the "Edison" locomotive as it is now, and what it started life as.


Attachments:
10496261_1443238302649210_5738279360870071751_o.jpg
10496261_1443238302649210_5738279360870071751_o.jpg [ 109.83 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]
THF136651.jpg
THF136651.jpg [ 98.26 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]
THF136657.jpg
THF136657.jpg [ 84.91 KiB | Viewed 285 times ]

_________________
Jake
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ironeagle2006, Son of a Coast Liner, wesp and 40 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: