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 Post subject: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:32 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:25 pm
Posts: 3641
Shot taken at Orange, Virginia on June 7, 1953:

http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi? ... anColl.jpg

Don't know if color photos of the C&O streamlined 4-6-4's (numbers 490-493) were rare or not. This engine might have been offered to Ross Rowland as an alternate to C&O 4-8-4 #614. But maybe not. Perhaps Ross can advise.

Here is a more recent photo at the B&O Railroad Museum:

http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi? ... anColl.jpg

Still looking good!

Les


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:09 pm
Posts: 211
Location: New York
A rare bird that one, especially as a postwar
rebuild. Poppets, I think one of two
existing in this country.
Its streamlining is not as suave as some,
odd combination of curvilinear and hard
edge.
Too bad one of the later C&O new build
Hudsons hasnt survived. Surely they
were the ultimate in that wheel
arrangement.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:50 am
Posts: 489
Location: Columbia, MD
Everyone reading this thread will be happy to know that C&O 490 has since been moved into the North Car Shop where her serious deterioration has been halted.

I can tell you that people really enjoy seeing her, and she is quite the show stopper. However I tell everyone that IMHO the C&O should have asked the Norfolk & Western how to properly streamline a locomotive. I personally think that the term "fugly" applies to this engine. However she is a historically significant piece, and I am glad she is still with us. But I would like to take that shroud off and paint her black the way God intended C&O steam engines should look.

I only wish that one of Otto Kuhler's streamlined P-7's could have joined class engine 5300 on an adjacent track. But I give thanks everyday that 5300 is still with us. If I ever hit Megamillions, she will be on her way to Strasburg for a full restoration.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:49 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:42 pm
Posts: 112
Location: Lexington, Kentucky
It looks like the shot taken in Orange is an excursion of some sort. Is it on the C&O or the Southern in this photo?


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:26 am
Posts: 2818
Location: Maine
I read somewhere that while 490 is a locomotive we railfans would love to see rebuilt, she has some serious wear or deterioration issues, and is also considered too light to do the type of fan tripping we all consider self-supporting. The streamlined locomotive represents an era of art-deco styling, ugly by modern tastes, but wonderfully contemporary with the "Normandie" and "Queen Mary". Seeing one hot and operating would be a treat.

I think Rowland made the correct choice when he was offered the Greenbriar. Some variety in wheel arrangements would be fun to look forward to in future rebuilds, but for right now, I'd take any 4-8-4 Ross or anyone else can get fired.

As far as a future streamlined Hudson rebuild, preservationists might consider one of the remaining CB&Q 4-6-4's.

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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:50 am
Posts: 489
Location: Columbia, MD
[quote=

As far as a future streamlined Hudson rebuild, preservationists might consider one of the remaining CB&Q 4-6-4's.[/quote]

Dick,

The CB&Q Hudson's were destreamlined during the World War II scrap metal drives, but the former #4000 aka "Big Alice the Goon" survives in her original guise as CB&Q #3001 at La Crosse, WI. She recently underwent a heavy cosmetic restoration.

This former Illini would welcome the return of ANY CB&Q steam engine to main line service as a Burlington engine.

Happy New Year one and all,
Kevin


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:46 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:25 pm
Posts: 3641
Kevin Gillespie wrote:
[quote=

As far as a future streamlined Hudson rebuild, preservationists might consider one of the remaining CB&Q 4-6-4's.


Dick,

The CB&Q Hudson's were destreamlined during the World War II scrap metal drives, but the former #4000 aka "Big Alice the Goon" survives in her original guise as CB&Q #3001 at La Crosse, WI. She recently underwent a heavy cosmetic restoration.

This former Illini would welcome the return of ANY CB&Q steam engine to main line service as a Burlington engine.
Happy New Year one and all,
Kevin[/quote]

Kevin -

You've got this just a bit wrong. Yes, "Big Alice the Goon" IS preserved at La Crosse, Wisconsin in her de-streamlined state. But she did NOT come from #3001! In fact, number 3001 is one of the OTHER four Burlington S-4 class Hudson's preserved, along with 3003, 3006 and 3007. Number 4000 was actually rebuilt in 1936 from sister 4-6-4 #3002 (not 3001). The 4000 was given new lightweight pistons, side and main rods. She was streamlined, and given the name "Aelous". She soon acquired the nickname "Big Alice" or "Big Alice the Goon". Perhaps the best thing that the Q ever did for her was to remove the streamlining during the Second World War.

There was actually a SECOND streamlined "Aelous" too. This one was number 4001, and was constructed in 1938 at the railroads West Burlington Shops using components from Baldwin and other suppliers. These two streamlined Hudson's were supposed to provide insurance when the Q's original passenger diesels could not meet a call to duty. Incidentally, the 4001 was distinctive from the other Q Hudsons in the fact that she had a Worthington type S feedwater heater (rather than an Elesco as on all the other 4-6-4's) and she was the only S-4 to have an all-weather vestibule cab.

Three of the other Hudsons were also rebuilt with lightweight components, but without the streamlined shrouding on 4000 and 4001. These were:

4002 (from 3009)
4003 (from 3008)
4004 (from 3011)

The story of the 4001 is particularly sad. She was the last Hudson to be overhauled in March 1954. She eventually was sent to Lincoln, Nebraska where she was set up for service and then placed in storage. The call to return to service never came, and she was scrapped in 1960 without ever again turning a wheel in service.

It is great that the Q preserved 5 of their good looking S-4's. Maybe some day, one will again grace the high iron. Something to hope for anyway.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:58 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:19 pm
Posts: 1354
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
The answer to Mr. Beckmans question is yes. We were offerred our "pick of the litter" so to speak and chose the 614 for a number of sound reasons;
1. Modernity (Americas last commercially built 4-8-4)
2. Relative Condition
3. Earnings (hauling) potential
4. 614 is the favorite engine of Mr. Hays T. Watkins then the CEO of Chessie System Railroads (CSX) and the man we were doing the deal with.


We took a look at the Hudson and our mechanical analysis in street language was "she was rid hard and put away wet!!!" In other words there were lots of "issues" with the Hudson we didn't face with 614.

It was actually really an easy and obvious choice and one we've never regretted!
Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:27 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:56 am
Posts: 1288
Location: Roanoke Va.
jwallis wrote:
It looks like the shot taken in Orange is an excursion of some sort. Is it on the C&O or the Southern in this photo?


Coming on to Southern trackage from C&O at that point. The C&O (and today's Amtrak "Cardinal") reached Washington DC through trackage rights from Orange over the old Southern mainline. C&O owned the Orange-Gordonsville portion of the old Orange & Alexandria RR, an arrangement that had it's roots in a pre-Civil War trackage rights agreement between the O&A and the Virginia Central.

Quote Kevin Gillespie:
"I can tell you that people really enjoy seeing her, and she is quite the show stopper. However I tell everyone that IMHO the C&O should have asked the Norfolk & Western how to properly streamline a locomotive. I personally think that the term "fugly" applies to this engine. However she is a historically significant piece, and I am glad she is still with us. But I would like to take that shroud off and paint her black the way God intended C&O steam engines should look."


Down heah in N&W country, I've heard the 490 and her sisters refered to as "inverted bathtubs". If I had "lottery money" to spend on restoring 490, I'd turn her back into an F-19 pacific. Much better looking loco in my book.
http://www.chessieshop.com/gallery/show ... l?id=39743

When it comes to streamlining, Frank Noel got it right. As an interesting aside, when Mercedes Benz's ad agency was looking for a streamlined steam locomotive to use as a backdop in a print ad, they first suggested the 490. The MB execs thought the engine was too ugly to show with their products. They then "discovered" 611. The resulting ads were in a number of magazines a few years back, including "Architectural Digest"

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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490's sister
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:30 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:25 pm
Posts: 3641
Gary Gray wrote:

Down heah in N&W country, I've heard the 490 and her sisters refered to as "inverted bathtubs". If I had "lottery money" to spend on restoring 490, I'd turn her back into an F-19 pacific. Much better looking loco in my book.
http://www.chessieshop.com/gallery/show ... l?id=39743



Gary -

Restoring her back to a F-19 Pacific is probably beyond any reasonable possibility. BUT, there was a sister L-1 class Hudson that the C&O never got around to streamlining; the 494. She was not a bad looking locomotive. And she WAS painted black! So removing the "inverted bathtub" from the 490 would not be an impossible thing to do. Keep all of the parts in case a conversion back to streamlining would ever be desired. Perhaps someone out there has a couple of photos of the 494 that they could post.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:09 pm
Posts: 211
Location: New York
Understandable choice entirely. But one last word
on the Hudson and that would be to note
streamlining was really over and done
with by the time the engine was rebuilt
and shrouded. As far as I know, only
the N&W did a streamlining job later.
No, it isnt the best example of the art
but glad it survived. If only the best
of anything is saved, we lose sight
of why it was the best.
Glad to hear it is under cover.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490's sister
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:56 am
Posts: 1288
Location: Roanoke Va.
[/quote]

Gary -

Restoring her back to a F-19 Pacific is probably beyond any reasonable possibility.
Les[/quote]

Les, Me having lottery money is probably beyond any reasonable possibility also..............:) (Plus there's a few other locomotives that would be ahead in the line)

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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490's sister
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:49 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:11 am
Posts: 127
Location: Missoula, MT
Heresy!!! The 490 looks as she was built. Why take that away from her? Pity non of the non-streamlined C&O Hudsons survived.
I've always wondered where the valve gear was on this locomotive. To the point I borrowed a flashlight at the B&O Museum to look between the wheels, couldn't see anything I would call valve gear. Can anyone enlighten me on this?

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 Post subject: Re: C&O streamlined Hudson #490's sister
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:39 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:31 am
Posts: 881
Location: South Carolina
AlderGulch12 wrote:
I've always wondered where the valve gear was on this locomotive. To the point I borrowed a flashlight at the B&O Museum to look between the wheels, couldn't see anything I would call valve gear. Can anyone enlighten me on this?


The 490 has Franklin Type "A" poppet valves, the only surviving engine so-equipped. The valve "gear" such as it is, is mostly sealed in a box between the frames behind the cylinder saddle.

Read more here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n17184256

(pardon the pop-ups)

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 Post subject: #490's & #493
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 139
Photos of both are now on EBay. "Railroad-Images" is the seller. I have no dog in this but thought someone might want to get a picture.

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