> About 5 years ago, John H. White wrote an
> article for the RLHS newsletter on
> documented cases of buried locomotives, most
> by plunging into rivers or inlets. He also
> commented on recovery possibilities. I don't
> have the specific reference at hand.

> The Confederates, in 1861, threw at least
> one B&O camel off of the Harpers Ferry
> bridge and into the Potomac River. That unit
> was later recovered by the B&O and
> returned to service. Those same Confederates
> captured over a dozen locomotives at
> Martinsburg and moved them south, pulled
> over public roads by horses and wagons. One
> of them became a downhill runaway and dove
> into a river (or lake?) near Winchester,
> Viginia. This locomotive is apparently still
> there.

> I can get more details if anyone is
> interested.

Speaking of Union and Confederate locomotives, I recall years ago reading about making the film "The General" starring Buster Keaton. The story went that the chase locomotive which crashed throught the burning bridge was left in situ in the river.

a) was that story true?
b) is it still there?
c) where is there?


mnowell@senstarstellar.com

"The General", a 1920s movie with Buster Keaton, did indeed dump an SP or UP 4-4-0 into the Row River in Oregon, on the Oregon, Pacific & Eastern. I've been told that a few parts of the engine remain in the river (apparently much deeper now due to a dam), but much of it was removed during a WWII scrap drive.

Speaking of Union and Confederate
> locomotives, I recall years ago reading
> about making the film "The
> General" starring Buster Keaton. The
> story went that the chase locomotive which
> crashed throught the burning bridge was left
> in situ in the river.

> a) was that story true?
> b) is it still there?
> c) where is there?


bobyar2001@yahoo.com

Speaking of the Civil War, I have been told some engines were ran into Berwick Bay, outside of Morgan City, LA by one side or the other to prevent their capture. Do any Civil War buffs know anything about this?

A switch engine with a leaky throttle did commit suicide and roll off the open bridge into the same bay, taking several cars with it. I have been told second hand that a diver inspecting a pipeline saw the cars, but the engine was not mentioned. A relative who lives in the area says there is talk of raising of the engine; a difficult task given the swiftness of the current and the poor visibility.

Another possible find not in my database is an engine supposively used as fill material in the levee around the Atchafalaya Basin. Did I actually spell that right? :)

The remains of a Brooklyn elevated Forney locomotive in the Basin itself is shown on one of my webpages. I have been told there are "other engines" to be found in the swamps of Louisiana. When I-10 was first opened, a paddlewheel was clearly visible in the water near the boat landings on Henderson Bay in Henderson, LA. I never got a chance to photograph it, and it disappeared in 1980s.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

Morgan City is my home town and it was common knowledge that during one of the raids during the War Between The States, locomotives of the New Orleans, Opelousas and Great Western were run into the river. The river there is about 800 yards wide, has mush for a bottom, and in the railroad draw could have been 90 feet deep. The Cecil N. Bean, a small steamboat, is also down there with the switch engine with the leaky throttle. There are hundreds if not thousands of steam vessels at the bottom of the Mississippi and Ohio River systems and their tributaries.

The forney you refer to has been so eroded by the elements it is little more than a rusted pipe.

Tim
> Speaking of the Civil War, I have been told
> some engines were ran into Berwick Bay,
> outside of Morgan City, LA by one side or
> the other to prevent their capture. Do any
> Civil War buffs know anything about this?

> A switch engine with a leaky throttle did
> commit suicide and roll off the open bridge
> into the same bay, taking several cars with
> it. I have been told second hand that a
> diver inspecting a pipeline saw the cars,
> but the engine was not mentioned. A relative
> who lives in the area says there is talk of
> raising of the engine; a difficult task
> given the swiftness of the current and the
> poor visibility.

> Another possible find not in my database is
> an engine supposively used as fill material
> in the levee around the Atchafalaya Basin.
> Did I actually spell that right? :)

> The remains of a Brooklyn elevated Forney
> locomotive in the Basin itself is shown on
> one of my webpages. I have been told there
> are "other engines" to be found in
> the swamps of Louisiana. When I-10 was first
> opened, a paddlewheel was clearly visible in
> the water near the boat landings on
> Henderson Bay in Henderson, LA. I never got
> a chance to photograph it, and it
> disappeared in 1980s.

> -James Hefner
> Hebrews 10:20a


runner@i-55.com

> Morgan City is my home town and it was
> common knowledge that during one of the
> raids during the War Between The States,
> locomotives of the New Orleans, Opelousas
> and Great Western were run into the river.
> The river there is about 800 yards wide, has
> mush for a bottom, and in the railroad draw
> could have been 90 feet deep. The Cecil N.
> Bean, a small steamboat, is also down there
> with the switch engine with the leaky
> throttle. There are hundreds if not
> thousands of steam vessels at the bottom of
> the Mississippi and Ohio River systems and
> their tributaries.

> The forney you refer to has been so eroded
> by the elements it is little more than a
> rusted pipe.

> Tim

One locomotive that has not apparently been mentioned in these latest threads is one I read about in TRAINS Magazine a number of years ago. The mag had an article on barge operations in Canada (British Columbia perhaps?) of Canadian Pacific to get to isolated sections of track. The operations included taking the locomotives on the barges and there was a report of a CP steamer that went off the end of a barge into one of these lakes that were apparently so deep that the railroad didn't even consider trying to recover it. Perhaps one of our Canadian friends can confirm (or put this one to bed!)

midlandblb@cs.com

Raymond Corley's "Preserved Canadian Railway Equipment" book listed these engines sunken in BC waters:

CN 417, 2-6-0, fell into Armstrong Lake and written off, October 1920

CN 2727, 2-8-0, hit rockslide and fell into Kamloops Lake, January 14, 1934

CP 3512, 2-8-0, Lost off barge into Slocan Lake in 1947 (Railroad Model Craftsman did something on this one a few years back)

PGE 53, 2-8-0, Hit slide and fell into Seton Lake on January 23, 1950

PGE 56, 2-8-0, Hit slide and fell into Anderson Lake on August 2, 1944

There are also two Shays at Beaver Cove that fell off a barge in 1936 when the operation was being scrapped out. One is visible at low tide, the other is submerged.

One locomotive that has not apparently been
> mentioned in these latest threads is one I
> read about in TRAINS Magazine a number of
> years ago. The mag had an article on barge
> operations in Canada (British Columbia
> perhaps?) of Canadian Pacific to get to
> isolated sections of track. The operations
> included taking the locomotives on the
> barges and there was a report of a CP
> steamer that went off the end of a barge
> into one of these lakes that were apparently
> so deep that the railroad didn't even
> consider trying to recover it. Perhaps one
> of our Canadian friends can confirm (or put
> this one to bed!)


bobyar2001@yahoo.com

Gerald Best's big book on Hawaiian RRs also noted that one or two 2-6-0s (can't remember) from the std. ga. Hawaii Consolidated RR (big island) were lost when being shipped back to California for scrap, about 1947.



bobyar2001@yahoo.com

Has anyone done soundings, dived,located or investigated recovery of any of these locos? These sound like prime candidates for recovery. Cold freshwater is much more forgiving to mechanical devices that is salt.
Can anyone build on this thread?

glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

I don't know of any efforts to recover or look at any of these, but some divers did recover two BCR Alco diesels that derailed into one of those lakes, sevaral years ago. The RS11 was raised first, and was put back into service, but the big 6-axle job was further down. Some divers made homemade flotation devices out of some big fuel oil tanks (if I recall) and lifted it that way. Last I heard, it had been hauled up onto shore and was to be cut up for scrap.

Has anyone done soundings, dived,located or
> investigated recovery of any of these locos?
> These sound like prime candidates for
> recovery. Cold freshwater is much more
> forgiving to mechanical devices that is
> salt.
> Can anyone build on this thread?


bobyar2001@yahoo.com

> What a delicious rumor! Did the old timer
> give a specific location and date? What a coup
> this would be.

Sorry,

As I recall, he had few or no specifics about his tale at all.

It was one of those " a long time ago..." stories.

Does anyone in "Pennsy circles" have company wreck reports for that territory?

That would seem like a logical place to start looking for clues.

This (entire thread) would make some great new Leonard Nimoy "In- Search-Of" episodes.

> The device exists but it doesn't work the
> way Hollywod showed it. If it did I would be
> out of a job. There is a whole lot of work
> and more than 1 shot to get an image. What
> you want is a magnetometer or ground
> penetrating radar which is what is used for
> looking for buried unexploded ordnance or
> buried barrels of toxic waste.
The story that was told to me (by two retired engineers from Altoona) was that a J-1 derailed west of Horseshoe Curve and rolled down the embankment and could not be pulled up, so it was buried on the spot. They both offered to take me up to the spot, which I never did. As I recall it was to have happened during or right after WW2. I knew these fellows very well and don't think they were pulling my leg, but who knows......

drotarinoh@webtv.net

> The story that was told to me (by two
> retired engineers from Altoona) was that a
> J-1 derailed west of Horseshoe Curve and
> rolled down the embankment and could not be
> pulled up, so it was buried on the spot.
> They both offered to take me up to the spot,
> which I never did. As I recall it was to
> have happened during or right after WW2. I
> knew these fellows very well and don't think
> they were pulling my leg, but who
> knows......

BOY! This is a DELIGHTFUL rumor!! I've often thought that the one black mark against the Pennsylvania Railroads otherwise superb steam locomotive preservation program was its decision not to preserve a J1 2-10-4. Supposedly the reason for this was that it was not DESIGNED by the PRR but used the C&O T class 2-10-4 design because of World War II restrictions. Still, it was the best of the later (newer) group of Pennsy steam and ran all over the system. Now as for this rumor itself, someone, somewhere, should have a Pennsy roster that might show a "missing in action" Texas type. Just the fact that one might be shown as "retired" right after the end of the war (a practically new engine retired?) would be one good clue that perhaps the incident DID occur. Perhaps there is a RyPN reader out there who is also a Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Society member who might be able to contact somebody at the Society who could check it out. And if it IS true; shovels anyone? I'll bring mine!

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, IN on the Pennsylvania Railroad!)

midlandblb@cs.com

Just had another one stirred up in the depths of my brain, I also thought maybe someone would have an update on it.

The Long Island RR built the short Atlantic Avenue tunnel in 1844 to relieve congestion in downtown Brooklyn. For mainly political reasons, it was closed not too many years after it opened; the last train ran through it in 1859. In 1861, the tunnel was sealed up. The tunnel is 17 feet high and 21 feet wide; the navigable portion of the tunnel is from 1700 to 2000 feet overall. (This is all from the webpage below.)

Bob Diamond was successfull in finding the tunnel in the 1980s; and the Brooklyn Trolley Musuem has offers occassional tours since.

It is rumored that a steam locomotive is sealed in behind a wall in the tunnel; the wall is shown on the webpage with the March 14, 1999 tour photographs. If so, it would be one dating from the 1844-1860 period the tunnel was open. Supposively, it was an older locomotive bound for scrap anyway that had broken down, suggesting pre-1850.

Anyway, there is another one for the record. I also have a question: has anyone made any excavations behind the wall, or determined if there is indeed a locomotive in there?

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a


The Atlantic Avenue Tunnel

james1@pernet.net

I haven't heard if they tried to look for the locomotive yet. Bob Diamond would be the one to speak to about it. His contact information is at the bottom of the attached page.

Atlantic Ave. Tunnel.
webmaster@tmny.org

> BOY! This is a DELIGHTFUL rumor!! I've often
> thought that the one black mark against the
> Pennsylvania Railroads otherwise superb
> steam locomotive preservation program was
> its decision not to preserve a J1 2-10-4.
> Supposedly the reason for this was that it
> was not DESIGNED by the PRR but used the
> C&O T class 2-10-4 design because of
> World War II restrictions. Still, it was the
> best of the later (newer) group of Pennsy
> steam and ran all over the system. Now as
> for this rumor itself, someone, somewhere,
> should have a Pennsy roster that might show
> a "missing in action" Texas type.
> Just the fact that one might be shown as
> "retired" right after the end of
> the war (a practically new engine retired?)
> would be one good clue that perhaps the
> incident DID occur. Perhaps there is a RyPN
> reader out there who is also a Pennsylvania
> Railroad Historical Society member who might
> be able to contact somebody at the Society
> who could check it out. And if it IS true;
> shovels anyone? I'll bring mine!

Save your shovels for coal or snow.

The PRRT&HS members on their e-group confirm that this rumor arose from the wreck of two-month-old J1a 6423 on Sept. 20, 1943. The loco was, somewhat incredibly (according to those who saw photos, and describe the wreckage as a very sad sight indeed) rebuilt and restored to service.

These members have also tracked down several other rumors of buried PRR steamers over the decades, and come up with documentation that all alleged grave victims were salvaged for scrap or operation.


lner4472@bcpl.net