It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:10 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:45 pm
Posts: 185
Location: Northern Virginia
I was asked to post this by a friend of mine. IRRC these locomotives have been discussed here several times. Maybe someone has a lead for Mr. Hansen. I don't know if he's a member of this forum so maybe direct e-mail would be best.


Mohawk and Hudson Chapter, NRHS equipment collection:

Two of the
locomotives in the collection have historical significance related to
the electrification of New York Central lines into the "new" Grand
Central Terminal when it was constructed early in the last century.
(This was the subject of a recent PBS documentary.) The older of the
two electrics, a GE/Alco Type S, built in 1904, is the first such
locomotive used by the New York Central to haul trains between Grand
Central and Croton-Harmon. The other of the two electrics, a Type T,
was built circa 1928 and used for the same service, and is believed to
be the only example of its type still existing. There are two other
Type S electrics still existing, but ours is the first of that type
placed into service, and the one that was featured in the PBS
documentary.

Our Chapter acquired the Type S from the American Museum of Electricity
(no longer existing), which in turn had acquired it by donation from
the New York Central in the 1960's. The Chapter acquired the Type T
from Amtrak in the 1980's. Both of these locomotives were cosmetically
restored for display by the Chapter in the 1980's, but have since been
stored outdoors, and are currently in need of restoration again. They
are now located on abandoned trackage on privately owned property
between the Port of Albany and the PSEG power plant in Glenmont. These
two locomotives, along with several other pieces of rolling stock, were
acquired by the Chapter with the intent of creating a rail museum in
the Capital District. These plans never came to fruition, so we are
now trying to locate other organizations which might be interested in
restoring some or all of this equipment, but especially the two
electrics because of their historic significance.

We have contacted both the Danbury (CT) Railroad Museum and the New
York City Transit Museum in the belief that a museum in the New York
Metropolitan Area might be the most appropriate location. Each has
expressed some interest, but nothing specific has come of it.

We are also aware that Metro North Commuter Railroad has evidenced
interest in their railroad heritage by restoring two FL-9 locomotives
(built circa 1960) in New Haven and New York Central livery,
respectively. We were hoping that they might also be interested in
restoring the two electrics for display at either Croton-Harmon or
Grand Central. We were also hoping that you might know someone at
Metro North who might have an interest in this project that we could
contact to discuss it with.

Moving these two locomotives from where they are now will be a
challenge, but we need to find a willing recipient before we undertake
a detailed study of possible costs and logistics. Quite frankly, if we
can't find a new home, they will probably wind up being scrapped, which
would be a shame and certainly not what anyone had intended when they
were originally rescued from that fate on their original retirement
from service.

Any help you can offer in this regard to point us in the right
direction would be greatly appreciated. Please feel free to forward
this message to anyone you can think of that might have an interest.

Thanks,

George Hansen, President
Mohawk and Hudson Chapter, NRHS
PO Box 1256
Clifton Park, NY 12065
518-371-7225
ghansen@nycap.rr.com


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:11 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 209
Part of the problem here is that the M&H group is playing games with people. Recently, I was told that someone had approached the M&H group with the idea of acquiring 2 diesel locomotives that are also on the same track along with the electrics.
This person wanted just the RS-3 and U25B (Both NYC). He was told he had to take all of the equipment (including the electrics) or no deal.....so he said no and another deal goes down the toilet.
The group should give away the equipment to whoever wants it and what they want as long as they pay for getting off the landlocked site. The sooner the better. The owner of the property does want it removed soon otherwise it will be scrapped. The M&H group has to stop being so picky about it otherwise it will lost forever. They are running out of time!
Same thing applies with the equipment in Colonie Yard (D&H).At the moment, the track IS connected, but is scheduled to be disconnected again as part of the agreement with CP. The WM FA2 is safely on its way to its new home in VA.
There are 3 locomotives (Alco RS3's and S-2)(D&H), 1 baggage car(NYC)and 2 very rare passenger cars (D&H) plus a caboose and boxcar (wood)(D&H).


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:16 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:09 pm
Posts: 211
Location: New York
The loss of an RS or a Uboat is not the end of the
world. There are many out there. But the loss
of that electric is disgraceful. No need to trowel
on blame despite it being richly deserved. The
need to get them out and to new, safe owners
is paramount.
This means dough. This means each of us needs
to toss in 50 or a hundred bucks. That used to
be long money but it sure ain't now and the cost
of dragging those metal monsters out of the
swamp isnt going to be cheap.
Im ready to toss my bucks in the hat as soon
as I see a outfit who has a workable plan and
is on the up and up.
Id say the boxcab is as important as most
steamers.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:54 am
Posts: 609
Just curious guys, how much dough does the M&H Chapter have in its bank accounts and what are they saving it for? A vacation for the last living member when there is nobody else left to show slides to?

They want somebody to send them the name of someone they can call at Metro North? Surely they must be kidding! Is that M&H letter an April fools joke? Just how helpless (or hopeless) are they? Metro North is in the phone book.

Seems like I remember photos of these locomotives from another discussion group, and they are pretty heavily picked over. In fact, I remember some very long discussions about these locomotives on another discussion group.

They want to restore them? For What? Display only? Operation? If for operation where would they operate them (and how)?

If it is for display only, what is the problem with creative use of that finest of precision instruments, a cutting torch. If they would end up being scrapped anyway, why not cut them up in sections that are a size and weight that they could be transported off the site by highway, and weld them back together someplace else?

And how about setting a realistic and attainable goal before asking for money?

Too radical an idea?

MX

_________________
"We Repair No Locomotive Before Its Time"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:15 am
Posts: 718
Location: Illinois
I think the first thing is to get a suitable location and pony up the money to move them. Operation is a goal we all harbor, often dashed when we return to reality. If these are more or less complete, I think they could turn a wheel on their own, at one of the many museums having 600 volt trolley wire. No, not with the NYC under running third rail (am I correct here?) but perhaps with another type of current collector as a stand in.

There is something about a growling locomotive moving on its own that demonstrates possibilities and often attracts new funding and labor.

I know that the S motor at IRM has moved itself in a very limited test, and if these pieces are complete, it might be done.

Rather than throw stones at the M&H Chapter maybe they should be congratulated on making a tough decision and this could well serve as a wake up call to other chapters harboring equipment and unrealistic dreams.

How heavy is a T motor, anyway?

Bob Kutella


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
Posts: 632
Location: Union, IL
Bob Kutella wrote:
I know that the S motor at IRM has moved itself in a very limited test, and if these pieces are complete, it might be done.


IRM's S-motor operated on more than just a limited test; it was used on at least a couple of occasions c1990 in revenue operation. I've seen a photo of it pulling a caboose train along the main line past the depot.


Bob Kutella wrote:
How heavy is a T motor, anyway?


According to my records it's about 292,000 lbs.

_________________
Frank Hicks
Preserved North American Electric Railway Equipment News
Hicks Car Works


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:11 pm
Posts: 371
Quote:
Rather than throw stones at the M&H Chapter maybe they should be congratulated on making a tough decision and this could well serve as a wake up call to other chapters harboring equipment and unrealistic dreams.


OK, let's give a nod to the fact that they didn't wait until the metal scrapping started but as mxdata has pointed out there have been several threads here (and elsewhere) talking about how offers to save these things have been rejected or with so many strings attached for the last 10 years. Yes, mxdata there is about $40,000 left in cash and savings for about 18 members at the M&H. That and unknown monies and photos associated with the Alco Builder's Photo Collection partially owned by the NRHS and "managed" by the M&H. So yes it would be a real jump start if the M&H gave so of this money to someone willing to take the risk and save these things. Sadly the story JohnC relates is what everyone has experienced with these guys.

_________________
SO


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NYC Electrics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:54 am
Posts: 609
Steamtown Observer, thanks for bringing over the financial information. I had thought I remembered a post with similar research that you had done some time ago on another forum.

Frankly guys, I have grown tired of hearing about M&H and I have very little sympathy for them. I can appreciate the points that Bob brings up, but after years of seeing this discussed, and having offered opinions based on several decades of experience maintaining and repairing locomotives, and repeatedly having been shouted down by people who have probably never worked a day in the industry, I have gotten to the point where the endless discussions of the plight of M&H are frankly just plain irritating.

This is the same crew who for years held their meetings in the neighborhood of many ALCO retirees and veterans, and apparently could never get around to reaching out to them to seek and preserve their stories and experiences. It seems that collecting rusting trophies was more important to them than people who made history were. They had an incomparable opportunity to make a lasting contribution to the documentation in the industry, and from what I can see they squandered it. Their collection of rusting wrecks is a most appropriate legacy.

MX

_________________
"We Repair No Locomotive Before Its Time"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Discussion Direction, a caution
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:39 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Henderson Nevada
This is not a reflection of any single post. I don't want to end this discussion, but please be careful...

Some comments about the Mohawk and Hudson Chapter are getting close to name calling. Discussing the chapter's current status, responsibilities, and history are mostly OK. Discussing past negotiations with the chapter may start to violate confidentiality.

I applaud them for trying to find a new home for the locomotives. It looks like it may be a difficult process. I understand placing conditions on the transfer, but could see how that could also prevent transfer.

Before you post think if you would want the same information about your group made public. We all probably gossip about our and other preservation groups (and we all seem to provide sufficient material to feed and support the gossip)... We just don't shout the information in a public place.

Thanks, as always your friendly moderator, Randy

_________________
Randy Hees
Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City, Nevada
http://museums.nevadaculture.org/nsrmbc
http://www.nevadasouthern.com/
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfNevadaSouthernRailway


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Discussion Direction, a caution
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:20 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:11 pm
Posts: 371
Randy,

You are correct that we shouldn't reveal private negotiations that were unsuccessful (or even if they were successful for that matter). John C's message might be helpful if someone is reading this and seriously wants to attempt to negotiate. As long as deal specifics are not given information is power. If a similar "all or nothing" condition is given at least a person will now know that is a possibility and have a negotiation position ready to handle it (or be prepared to walk away).

As far as their money goes, it is public record. There are 2 or 3 sites that offer access to the Form 990's of all 501(c)3 organizations with revenue over $25,000. Again if someone is attempting to strike a deal and they are told "we are broke" I think it is useful to know that they do have some money and that they spend very little of it on their assets.

I do a lot of competitive analysis work for both for profit and non-profits. People and organizations that are willing to spend or donate the kind of money needed to acquire, move and restore one of these electrics need to find out everything they can about who they are dealing with. That does not include spying or corporate espionage but a wise use of all the available resources. Since the MH Chapter essentially has no public face we have to dig to fairly evaluate their request for someone to come take the problem they created off their hands.

Quote:
Before you post think if you would want the same information about your group made public. We all probably gossip about our and other preservation groups (and we all seem to provide sufficient material to feed and support the gossip)... We just don't shout the information in a public place.


Remember in today's world you are just another non-profit asking for money and public support. You already have a tough time because the art museum, homeless shelter or Salvation Army don't need to spend a lot of time explaining why they need support, but they do have to show they are doing it wisely. In order to get beyond the admission booth or your members you are going to have to educate others to give and still show you are spending it wisely. If a foundation or other grant giver is considering you for a donation you can be sure you will get scrutiny greater than what has been raised here about M&H. Maybe it's not nice or fair, but you owe it to your organization to think about what things an outsider can find out about you.

_________________
SO


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Writing a letter not good enough?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:22 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:54 am
Posts: 609
The fact that M&H can't simply write a letter to the management at Metro North, and instead wants someone to hand them their list of contacts there so that they can pester the officials with phone calls, really says it all. Would you want to hand over a list of the phone numbers of your friends in the industry to these people? Would you be concerned about how it might affect your professional relationship with those friends?

MX

_________________
"We Repair No Locomotive Before Its Time"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Writing a letter not good enough?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:10 am 
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Henderson Nevada
While the H&M chapter can be criticized for many things, asking for appropriate contacts at Metro North is not one of them.

In any large (and in many small) organization a blind letter ends up on some secretaries desk. It has a poor chance of producing results. On the other hand a letter to the right person will produce at least a dialog, if not results.

_________________
Randy Hees
Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City, Nevada
http://museums.nevadaculture.org/nsrmbc
http://www.nevadasouthern.com/
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfNevadaSouthernRailway


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Using Google not good enough?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:54 am
Posts: 609
This situation is so pathetic that it is amusing. That is why I wondered if the letter from M&H was an April fools joke. If the M&H chapter wants to write a letter to the top at Netro North, they can easily google the phrase "President of Metro North" and they will get a couple thousand references telling them who to write to.

If what they really want is a phone number so the President of the Mohawk & Hudson Chapter can call up the President of Metro North directly:

Sorry ...... I don't give out that information.

MX

_________________
"We Repair No Locomotive Before Its Time"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Never heard of "The Pocket List"?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:23 pm
Posts: 180
Location: Florida's Forgotten Coast
Perhaps someone from the Chapter could go to a major library in the area and look in the latest quarter's copy of "The Pocket List of Railway Officials". In it, they will find the listing of almost all railroads down to the Assistant Trainmaster level, most with telephone numbers.

There is still information in print unavailable on the internet.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Never heard of "The Pocket List"?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:04 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1438
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
thirdrail wrote:
Perhaps someone from the Chapter could go to a major library in the area and look in the latest quarter's copy of "The Pocket List of Railway Officials". In it, they will find the listing of almost all railroads down to the Assistant Trainmaster level, most with telephone numbers.
Dave Stephenson wrote:
George Hansen, President
Mohawk and Hudson Chapter, NRHS
PO Box 1256
Clifton Park, NY 12065
518-371-7225
ghansen@nycap.rr.com
(above from 1st post of this topic)
Listing in "The Pocket List of Railway Officials", 2nd Quarter, 2008, p. D-22:
Quote:
Mohawk & Hudson Chapter National Railway Historical Society
Albany NY 12210-1805, 131 Jay St.; 518-449-8450;
FAX: 518-449-4601; E-Mail:empirestate@worldnet.att.net
Timothy C. Truscott, Pres., (Albany, NY)
If their 2 presidents would communicate with each other, a trip to the library would not be necessary. Since they are already listed in the "Pocket List", a free copy is sent to everyone whose name is listed, usually to the address that is listed for that person. If they didn't keep the rest of their officers secret from the publisher, more copies would be sent, individually addressed. They have also kept the count of their rolling stock and the purpose for the organization's existence a secret from the publisher, or he would have also printed them.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], elecuyer, Google [Bot], Rainier Rails, SteamEnthusiast4000, Yahoo [Bot] and 54 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: