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 Post subject: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donation
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:11 pm
Posts: 371
After a number of years the Children's Museum in Utica, NY has apparently had a change in management and no longer wants three pieces of railroad equipment owned by the Utica & Mohawk Valley Chapter, NRHS to remain on display at the museum. My understanding is the relationship has really soured and the Children's Museum has sent letters telling U&MV that they will start scrapping the cars in the next 30 days.

I got the following announcement and I am posting it here in the hopes someone might be able to give one or more of these items a new home:

Quote:
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

The Utica & Mohawk Valley Chapter, National Railway Historical Society anticipates immediate disposition of three items of historic rolling stock, now on outdoor display at the Children's Museum of History, Science & Technology, 311 Main Street, Utica, NY (next door west of Utica Union Station).

All are on panel track, not connected to active track, but adjacent to city streets and within 300 feet of a New York, Susquehanna & Western, a connection to CSX, and (across CSX) the Mohawk, Adirondack & Northern Railroads. The locomotive and diner share one panel truck; the caboose is on a second.

The U&MV Chapter will consider donating pieces to responsible non-profit organizations. Bids from private individuals or for-profit businesses are also welcome, but they should not anticipate donations of equipment. New owners will be responsible for removing the equipment as soon as possible, at their own expense.

1) ALCO RSC-2 (A1A-A1A) diesel road switcher, built in 1952 for Seaboard Air Line. Later Seaboard Coast Line, Florida Power & Light, Adirondack Railway (1979-80), and New York, Susquehanna & Western (for parts).

CONDITION: Not operable: traction motors and numerous engine parts removed by previous owner. Painted Adirondack Railway forest green and gold in Dupont Imron.

2) Budd stainless steel dining car, built in 1937 as Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe 1479. In Amtrak service 1971-early '80s.

CONDITION: 73-year old body testifies to durability of Budd's patented "Shot-Weld" construction, but needs many fogged windows replaced. One truck and one draft gear not roadworthy. Small gas hot-air furnace installed and 110-volt entrance installed for museum display.

3) Pennsylvania Railroad steel cabin car (caboose) 477594, model N5e built at Altoona Shops in 1929. Said to be one-of-a-kind. Penn Central and Conrail until retired in mid-a980s.

CONDITION: Carbon steel body generally sound but needs body work, window work, and interior restoration. Painted and lettered PRR. No modern utilities installed.

SERIOUS INQUIRIES ONLY PLEASE, TO:
Utica & Mohawk Valley Chapter, NRHS
P.O. Box 257, Whitesboro, NY 13492

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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donation
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:12 am
Posts: 90
Anyone have the stats - car weight, height etc for the diner and the caboose?

I presume the diner is 85 feet in length.

Rob P


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donation
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:18 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:40 pm
Posts: 39
Seems to have hit the press...

http://www.uticaod.com/features/x159496 ... ric-trains


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donation
PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:11 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:40 pm
Posts: 35
Hang on. Apparently the request for proposals from the President was a bit premature. The organizations are still working through legal means to resolve this issue. This goes further than just the "concern for safety." Stay tuned and keep your hats on.

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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:39 am
Posts: 534
It looks like these cars are now for sale on the Ozark Mountain Railcar site. The Santa Fe diner is listed for $15K, the PRR caboose for $12K and the shell of the RSC2 for $10K.


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:24 am
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Location: H2O-town, CT
Those prices seem very reasonable. What is the closest active rail line to that equipment? I hope that RSC-2 gets saved.


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
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Location: Leicester, MA.
If I had the money, I'd be first in line for that RSC-2. Every station needs a train, but not every train needs a station.

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https://www.facebook.com/LambertLocomotive/


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 413
The closest rail line is CSX, a very short distance away. However, that won't help you with regards to the diner, since CSX is still adhering to their current policy of only moving passenger equipment with "rotating end cap" roller bearings. But since the car would likely have to be loaded for highway transport anyway - even to get to the nearest CSX tracks - it should not cost that much more to get it to the nearest convenient track served by the NS.


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:43 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 653
Just an update on this thread: today, I received my copy of the June 2001 (Issue 342) Tower Topics, "The Official Bulletin of the Utica & Mohawk Valley Chapter of the NRHS Inc." On page 2 is the "Our President's Message" column, written by the U&MV Chapter President. In his second paragraph, he provides an update on the dispute with the Utica Children's Museum, then writes:

Quote:
By the way, if you'd like to buy any of the equipment, check out the listings at http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com. Click on the thumbnails to see photos and prices."


Tower Topics is "Published monthly except for July and August", so the next newsletter update will be in September, at its earliest.

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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 73
Seems to me that the Alco Historical & Techinical Society might be interested in that RSC-2 even if it is for display only..


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:31 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2561
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Quote:
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
...
The U&MV Chapter will consider donating pieces to responsible non-profit organizations. Bids from private individuals or for-profit businesses are also welcome, but they should not anticipate donations of equipment.

That's exactly right. For a nonprofit to "donate" something to a person or for-profit is called private inurement, and it is illegal. The punishment ranges from a 25% excise tax if you voluntarily report it, to 200%+25%+interest if they must chase you, to re-evaluation of the organization's nonprofit status.


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:20 pm
Posts: 217
nictd1000 wrote:
Seems to me that the Alco Historical & Techinical Society might be interested in that RSC-2 even if it is for display only..

Don't even consider it.Those phonies have no money and in debt already.


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:21 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1280
Location: Chicago USA
So what happens if no non-profit wants an item and no individual or for-profit is willing to pay for it but would be willing to take it for free (or $1 purchase). Does the fact that an item would bring several thousand dollars from the scrap merchant tie the hands of the non-profit and force an item to be scrapped because the law won't let them just give it away? That would be rather unfortunate. (I presume the dollar purchase would be construed as a sham transaction.)

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:57 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
filmteknik wrote:
So what happens if no non-profit wants an item and no individual or for-profit is willing to pay for it but would be willing to take it for free (or $1 purchase). Does the fact that an item would bring several thousand dollars from the scrap merchant tie the hands of the non-profit and force an item to be scrapped because the law won't let them just give it away? That would be rather unfortunate. (I presume the dollar purchase would be construed as a sham transaction.)


Not necessarily. With the obvious disclaimer that "I Am Not A Lawyer"......

I've seen "$1 transactions" with the provision that the party buying the artifact preserve the artifact, and/or that the non-profit retains "right of first refusal" to any subsequent sale, parting-out of parts, whatever. Technically, the "$1" sale is a legal function designed to absolve the seller of liabilities and the like, or other nightmares conjured up by Legal Departments. If you are dissolving a non-profit and there's little or nothing to do with the proceeds of a sale, a $1 sale could make sense, for example--otherwise you're spending the $2,000 (or whatever) sale proceeds on a mission that may no longer be valid or exist.

Of course, a lot of this is academic. If, say, the Grand Canyon Railway wants a car enough to spend the tens of thousands it'll take to get it to Williams and the hundreds of thousands it may take to put it into revenue service, the difference between $1 and scrap value may be a trifle.


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 Post subject: Re: Utica & Mohawk Valley NRHS equipment available for donat
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:12 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2561
Location: S.F. Bay Area
I agree -- the IRS is going to give you some leeway, but they are still ultimately going to want to see how your transaction fulfills the mission of the nonprofit and positively avoids inurement. It really depends an awful lot on what happens NEXT. Most likely that will have unfolded by the time IRS gets around to investigating.

IANAL but I say it's a perfectly viable way to keep something "ahead of the torch"... but it does create a latent inurement issue with a very long arm. So handle it very clean, with a good plan written down and good documentation, prepared to answer the inurement question. Get comparables, and here's a GREAT one: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31575

Hmm, another way of playing that might be just to go ahead and pay the 25% excise tax "as if" it were an inurement. I would think that would take the 200% penalty off the table. IANAL, check with one.

And when IRS starts challenging you, don't be a choke artist. Don't cave, don't go "can't fight city hall" or "IRS is too scary" or "gubbmint is out to get me" or "can't afford a lawyer" or whatever. Stick up for yourself fair but steady. Use tax court if you have to - it won't go to trial, they'll settle, but it'll get you in touch with people who actually get it and can settle.

Oh, and the takeaway from this: If you have handshake deals, memorialize them in writing. Go back and do that for existing deals. (except in the very rare case it doesn't make sense for some arcane reason of law.)


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