It is currently Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:52 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 232 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 16  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:07 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 399
Mark Jordan wrote:
The problem is that the code (ASME) makes some assumptions when specifying construction criteria that can lead to disaster:


I have seen many butcher jobs that are not obviously listed in the Code because no engineer would think anybody could be that stupid.

Mark Jordan wrote:
1) Nowhere in the code does it say that the threads on adjacent firebox sheets shall be timed to accept the threaded bolt.


“PG-82.1 Threaded (staybolt) holes shall be tapped fair and true with a full thread.”
When the manufacturer specified the thread profile, USF, Whitworth, that invokes the ANSI standard and all that goes with it. Major, minor pitch diameter, lead, lead error, etc.


Mark Jordan wrote:
2) Where does the code say that a staybolt has to be straight?


The Code says the staybolt must able to carry its design load. Just suppose there are four staybolts in a row except one has a bend in it. 3 straight, one with a bend in it. In the shop, the AI should ask to see the calculations to prove that as the boiler is pressurized; the bent stay will not deflect, thereby reducing its load carrying capability. The straight bolts obviously will not deflect. It is the manufacturer’s responsibility to prove the adequacy of the curved staybolt design. The shop inspector should have caught this. Now the National Board should be advised. The boiler never should have left the shop. Without a superbank of computers to prove the design, then PG-100 comes into play where the manufacturer builds a duplicate to test to destruction to determine MAWP.

Mark Jordan wrote:
The older reference to "traction or portable", or "locomotive style" boiler having to have at least 6 washouts/hand holes has been dropped.

As far as washouts are concerned you can always add more. The ASME Code only addresses safe design when new. It does not address thermal efficiency or a long maintenance free life.

Mark Jordan wrote:
due to the fact that they met code and had the appropriate paperwork, they were deemed "OK".


Just because it has a stamp on it does not necessarily mean it meets Code, unfortunately.

PS
Mark,
Looks like you have some 'red-tagging" to do tomorrow.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:35 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5252
Location: southeastern USA
Doesn't Matt have the coolest pictures.......

I remember seeing a really humorous one about curved stays several years ago at the TRAIN convention.

dave

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
All,

In regards to Matts' pictures of the firebox, I have seen a traction engine boiler built by the same company(whom is now heading up the boiler design and fabrication of a new construction locomotive project) that had "S" curve staybolts and longitudinal stays in hard contact with the highpoint of the crown.

In regards to stays being in time. There was much debate regarding this subject in the later years of the steam era and the going opinion was that the time was never off enough to matter. Not sure I buy into that, one can easily utilize one of Mr. Yuills taps as a crown stay tap...even easily keeping the threads in time.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:04 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 384
Matt,

I'm not arguing with anything you said, but I'll tell you I've seen some doozies. PG82, in all it's glory, still doesn't tell the unknowing shop to "time" the sheets......you can tap each sheet independently, and force the bolt. Regarding AI work.......I've seen data plates on backwards (data facing vessel / back of plate facing inspector). Each time I see something I think to myself "Now how the hell did THIS happen??" Yet, each day brings something new.

A 2' gauge locomotive (new construction) here passed and has it's stamp, but I could spend pages talking about all that I think is wrong with it.

These issues are common and not specifically related to locomotive or traction engine boilers. Everyday wet back scotch marine boilers usually have misaligned stays, and sometimes bent, too. When the boiler is one of "special" construction (i.e. locomotive / traction) and the constructing shop isn't geared up and knowledgable, well let the creative construction begin!

Mark


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 399
The boiler shown was built for the Lahaina RR by Benson Mountain. I had 22 ASME Code violations on my list when I told the RR GM that there are only so many bullets you need to put in a dead horse. The Asst. Dir. of Inspections for the National Board verified my 22 and added 17 more. The ASME directed the AIA Kemper Ins. to locate all Code certified components manufactured by Benson Mountain and verify Code compliance, bring the vessels into compliance or remove the Code stamp. Eight vessels out of 26 had the stamps ground off. Several were on private property and the NB was not allowed access. (Jason: The boiler you saw was that before or after the Code stamp was ground off? If the boiler has moved into the public sector, the NB would like to know its location.)

Mark,
Regarding timing of threads in the sheets, PG-47.1 says "stays screwed through the plate SHALL EXTEND BEYOND the plate NOT LESS THAN TWO THREADS WHEN INSTALLED". It does not say a nub shall extend.

I also have seen some creative code interpretations. I think the best of all was the electric steam boiler in a spa. It had a 15# hand weight sitting on the safety valve spindle. They said the valve was leaking steam and the label said 15#, therefore the 15# hand weight. That was a $1000 fine for disabling a safety valve.


Attachments:
BMBA12B.jpg
BMBA12B.jpg [ 45.93 KiB | Viewed 3653 times ]
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:31 pm
Posts: 295
Location: TEXAS
Just how big are those stays, as they don't look much bigger than 1/2"? And what I want to know it, what AI looked at that said, uh, looks good to me......

what really gets me is they went to the trouble to flange the sheets, and then just flat out cobbed the rest of it up.

I would love to see the engineering drawings on that, and how that mess was calculated.

BTW was just visiting with a friend with a boiler shop that does some historic boilers, and I am of the opinion that a boiler with welded long seams, and rivited circumferential is a good comprimise when a historic look is desired.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 572
Hi All

I just received word that Marty Westland of Ely, Nevada, is on the ASME committee and will be in Strasburg, Pennsylvania. Do we anyone know who the other members are?

Robby Peartree


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:21 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:35 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Shelton, Washington
Robby,
Are you refering to the NB Special Subgroup for Locomotive Boilers, or is there another A.S.M.E. Group?
The NBIC 07/09 Addenda list the following people:

B. Withuhn
S. Butler
D. Conrad
R. Franzen
D. Griner
S. Jackson
M. Janssen
S. Lee
D. McCormack
L. Moedinger
R. Reetz
G. Scerbo
R. Schueler
R. Stone
R. Yuill

Is the new guy an addition, or a replacement for someone?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 572
Hi Nathan

Here is the list I have

Name Of Member, Com Exp Date
Chair Linn Moedinger, 6-30-2012
Mr. Paul Boschan, 6-30-2014
John Braun, 6-30-2014
Steven M. Butler, 6-30-2014
J. David Conrad, 6-30-2014
Robert C. Franzen Jr., 6-30-2014
Mr. David W. Griner, 6-30-2014
Steven D. Jackson, 6-30-2014
Matthew A. Janssen, 6-30-2014
Gregory M. Ray, 6-30-2014
George I. Scerbo, 6-30-2014
Robert D Schueler Jr., 6-30-2014
Richard B. Stone, 6-30-2014
Martin W. Westland P.E., 6-30-2014
William L. (Bill) Withuhn, 6-30-2014
Robert Yuill, 6-30-2014

It is interesting to see the differences. I hopw the people on the committee make it a point to open up the discussion of what they are doing and we have some form of a report.

Robby Peartree


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:39 pm
Posts: 55
There was a post on this topic last night (4-10-2010) that is not here today by somebody who may not have all or accurate information on the new ASME Subgroup on Locomotives. It is not hard to understand some of the misperception as a number of the members of the National Board group are also in the ASME group (see above lists). The American Society of Mechanical Engineers, Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code is an approximately 20,000 page document that provides rules and standards for the new construction of boilers and pressure vessels. The National Board Inspection Code provides rules and standards for the operation, inspection, repair and alteration of boilers and pressure vessels. One good way to draw a mental dividing line is new versus post construction activities. Where these lines get blurred is when the most recent edition of the ASME Code is used to provide the rules of construction for a repair or alteration of an existing boiler or pressure vessel. The new ASME Subgroup will only deal with issues relating to new construction.

I apologize to the Moderators for mentioning a deleted post. I thought other members of the community may be confused by the close relationship of the various groups and committees that deal with locomotive boilers so I wanted to share what little I know about this topic in the interest of clarity.

S.O.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 572
Dear Mr. Ottaway

Thank you for the clarification.

Robby Peartree


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:35 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Shelton, Washington
Stan;
You are exactly right. The issue of late has been problems with the construction of new replacement boilers of late. This is something the A.S.M.E. appears to be looking at finally. The N.B.I.C. has the repair procedures down pretty good until lately. What I have found amusing, is that if I build a new boiler to Section I, and have to repair it two years later, I am not allowed to use the same materials that the boiler was built with, but must use some "unobtainium" from some hard to find source.
Regards, Nathan


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:54 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1260
Location: Henderson Nevada
The deleted post was deleted by the original poster.

Moderators have occasional back channel discussions about posts... Generally this occurs when we have concerns that the post is on the margin of our guide lines, but has not crossed (yet)

We also look at the information included... a post that is close to the edge of the rules, which also includes a strong well said point of view with good information is likely to stay.

This thread, and the lap seam boiler thread are providing great information. Occasionally both are close to violating guidelines, there are strong points of view expressed, but the information is so good.

Our goal is not to moderate... it is to guide... There are lots of posts that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up... but...

Your always friendly moderator, (In memory of Kevin Gellespie)

_________________
Randy Hees
Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City, Nevada
http://museums.nevadaculture.org/nsrmbc
http://www.nevadasouthern.com/
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfNevadaSouthernRailway


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:30 am 

Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:06 am
Posts: 35
Hi
I am from Tasmania Australia and interested in most of the comment in this thread. Fillet welded boiler stays in steam locomotive boilers have been in use here from about 1949 and pretty well conform to welded stays in the current Australian Standard AS 1228-2006 Pressure Equipment - Boilers. I have drawings produced by the Government Railways of the period
Not being technically gifted as some contributors I would say fillet welded boiler stays here have passed the test of time without catastrophic failure.

However one should consider the danger of welded in Arch Tubes which the National Board of Inspection Code allows (Part 3 - Repairs and Alterations S1.2.9.2).
The fear here (Australia) is because of relatively thin walled tubes (7swg) and relatively thin firebox plate thickness (3/8th"), The rapid and varying fluctuations in pressure and temperatures, plate and tube movement could cause a fracture with the potentia for disastrous results.
What has the experience been for Heritage Railways in the United States that use welded in Arch Tubes?
Maybe Arch Tube discussion ought to be moved to a new thread??


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From the TRAIN News Blog (Re: New Locomotive Boiler Code)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:30 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:39 pm
Posts: 55
Nathan wrote:
...What I have found amusing, is that if I build a new boiler to Section I, and have to repair it two years later, I am not allowed to use the same materials that the boiler was built with, but must use some "unobtainium" from some hard to find source.
Regards, Nathan


The NBIC in Part 3, Section 1.2, paragraph (a) reads, "When the standard governing the original construction is the ASME Code or ASME RTP-1, repairs and alterations to pressure retaining items shall conform, insofar as possible, to the section and edition of the ASME Code most applicable to the work planned." This allows the use of the original edition/addenda of the Code for your repairs. If you used SA-516-70 pressure vessel steel plate for the original construction, but the current Code did not allow it (don't worry, SA-516-70 is still very much allowed for boiler plate) you could still use the original material specification and the original allowable stress for the repair or alteration.

Nathan, I would like to know more about the situation you described. Contradictions within the Codes crop up from time to time so for the sake of my own education, I’d like to know more.

Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

S.O.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 232 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 16  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 6-18003, bbunge, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 44 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: