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 Post subject: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5262
Location: southeastern USA
I'm trying to compare the US arrangement of a burner under the throat sheet aimed towards the door sheet in an open firebox with the Canadian practice of the burner under the door sheet aimed towards the throat with a brick arch included. I've seen it in place on large locomotives; wondering about smaller industrial oil fired Canadian locomotives?

Also, drafting arrangements for the Canadian style - proportions and locations of air inlets? And, if any measurement has been done to compare the two in terms of any additional efficiency that might be gained through the longer fire path within the firebox itself in the Canadian system.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 906
Location: Brampton, Ontario
While I don't have any information on CNR Oil Burners, I can at least provide you with a list of surviving CNR Oil Burning Steam Locomotives.

First off, perhaps Steve Hunter (sbhunterca on this board) at the Smith Falls Railway Museum may be able to help you out. They have ten-wheeler 1112. http://www.rmeo.org/

Then of course there is 4-8-2 6060 in Stetler, Alberta under the care of the Rocky Mountain Railway Society, bur currently out of service. http://www.6060.org/

Kamloops Heritage Railway has 2-8-0 2141 in British Columbia, also currently out of service. http://www.kamrail.com/

Then there is 4-6-0 1392 at the Alberta Railway Museum in Edmonton, which seems to be running. http://www.albertarailwaymuseum.com/

That's it for operational or out of service CNR oil burners, In the lawn ornaments category we have three Pacifics:

5080 in Prince Albert SK
5093 at the casino in Regina SK
5114 at Melville Regional Park, Melville SK

and the Ten Wheeler.

1158 Western Development Museum in North Battleford SK http://wdm.ca/nb.html

(Perhaps a tour of Saskatchewan is in order?)

Finally, one I'm more familiar with is 4-8-2 6077 in Capreol, Ontario at the Northern Ontario Railway Museum. http://normhc.ca/silverstripe/

A friend was working on that engine and has sent me some photos of it. Curiously when the smokebox was opened up recently, it was discovered that all of the usual equipment we normally expect to encounter whilst working on coal burning engines, was completely missing from 6077, including diaphragm plates, netting etc. We're not certain if this was in fact how the engine was run, or if these parts were removed but never replaced when the locomotive was put on display. I'll have some photos for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5262
Location: southeastern USA
Thanks Joe - while I'm obviously ignorant about technical details of Canadian practice, In the US many oil burners had front ends that were a LOT simpler than thoose used for coal given there were no cinders to catch (unless the fireman and grande of glop wasn't favorable.) Most of the little locomotives I've worked on had nothing up there but some form of petticoat pipe arrangement over the nozzle and below the stack - and that's it.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Brampton, Ontario
Views of 6077's firebox, showing the arch tubes and thermic syphons, brick arch and damper.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Brampton, Ontario
View of the burner in 6077's firebox. Note the large section of the back of the boiler that was replaced when the CNR converted her to burn oil, reducing the size of the firedoor opening after removing the HT Stoker.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Brampton, Ontario
Inside 6077's smokebox and some views of the rear tube sheet.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5262
Location: southeastern USA
OK, superheaters shrouded - possibly with a superheater damper as original equipment?

So, it looks like there's very little air opening around the burner, primary draft coming in at the forward end of the firepan - maybe in the last third(?) and probably some form of secondary draft through a vent in the firedoor - am i about right here?

Thanks - great photos.

dave

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 906
Location: Brampton, Ontario
I believe 6077 has a type E superheater with an American Multiple Throttle. I don't think these engines ever had a superheater damper (i.e. of the mechanical type actuated by the presence of steam in the steam chest).

Looking at the back of the burner, it seems like there is some sort of swinging door, operated by a lever that runs up into the cab.

The firebox door has a small peephole on it along with a smaller sliding plate which I believe is used for sanding the flues.

Here's a shot of the fireman's controls. You can see the two levers used for controlling the firebox, the top appears to control fuel flow, while the bottom would control the damper. The lever that runs to the door on the back of the burner is just to the right. And one of those steam valves would control the steam supply to the burner.


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
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Location: Brampton, Ontario
A good question would be how would that damper on the back of the burner be used and what was its purpose.

Did it allow air into the firebox, or was it related to maintenance, or was it used when lighting the fire? Would it be open all the time; could the size of the opening be controlled, or was it a matter of either open or closed?

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
Hi, Dave:

Here are a few firebox photos from CNR G-16-a 4-6-0 # 1112 at RMEO:

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo/sfrmeo-album--12/imag1141.html

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo/sfrmeo-album--12/imag1140.html#media

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo/sfrmeo-album--12/imag1138.html#media

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo ... html#media

And the locomotive's album:

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo ... album--12/

You'll note the superheater units were out of the engine for inspection when these were taken, they are back in now. There are no plans to return 1112 to service unless she can earn her keep, but considerable mechanical work and maintenance has been done on her.

I don't have any photos of the burner, damper, etc., but next time I'm in Smiths Falls I'll try to take a few.

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 906
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Steve,In this photo of #1112, I see she has a complete version of the lever that 6077 appears to be missing, which is linked to the small door on the back of the burner, do you know what that door is all about?

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo ... g1136.html

Also, I notice a hole on the bracket above the two handles, was that for a light fixture?

And Dave, it appears that that handle is also on a quadrant like the other two suggesting that it too can be operated with precision.

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:46 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Steve,
It looks like some ultra sound work has been done on #1112. If you can say, how were the numbers in general?
The old gal looks really good.
Re the fire door on oil burners, I have seen diagrams that show appliances for allowing air through the firedoor. But these included deflectors to ensure that the air was directed downwards towards the burning oil. The one shown on #6077 was the same on #6060, I believe, and was generally used for sanding the flues if the boiler got "smoked" from over firing or from sitting too long. On #6060, it was used for sanding for smoke effect at photo runbys of course!


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:19 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
Quote:
Steve,
It looks like some ultra sound work has been done on #1112. If you can say, how were the numbers in general? The old gal looks really good.


The numbers were very good, although I don't have them at my disposal. The only spot that is iffy is a worn spot where the rear driver wore into the left outer side sheet, courtesy of a derailment on the Quebec North Shore & Labrador.

The locomotive saw considerable work before its sale to QNS&L in 1952, including conversion to oil firing. Everything we've seen has confirmed the high quality of this work and its thorough nature- boiler, wheels (good profile and lots of meat).

Quote:
Steve,In this photo of #1112, I see she has a complete version of the lever that 6077 appears to be missing, which is linked to the small door on the back of the burner, do you know what that door is all about?

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo ... g1136.html

Also, I notice a hole on the bracket above the two handles, was that for a light fixture?

And Dave, it appears that that handle is also on a quadrant like the other two suggesting that it too can be operated with precision.


The lever is for the damper- I'll try to get better photos of the actual damper(s) and anything else related to the oil burning mods that might be helpful next time I'm at Smiths Falls.

This is definitely capable of fairly fine adjustment.

As for the bracket above the firing and atomizer levers, My suspicion is that a light was once mounted there. Nothing was mounted when we moved the locomotive from Quebec.

I'll check around to see if we can find any leads to drawings on oil firing conversion of small CNR locomotives. I suspect the Canada Science & Technology Museum in Ottawa may have some very good information.

Speaking of CSTM, it's possible some older members of the Ontario Rail Association may have solid information from the oil firing conversion of CP G-5 Pacific #1201 at the CP John Street roundhouse in Toronto.

Best of luck with your conversion project, Dave!

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5262
Location: southeastern USA
Great information and pictures, thanks gentleman.

I'm especially interested in the "door behind the burner" since the photos seem to show the burner almost encased in firebrick.

What we're thinking through is an old oil conversion done in the easiest most common way....and trying to see how we can redo it better in terms of more complete cleaner combustion and more heat transfer. Most of the old hardware is gone, so it's an open book for a better way if we an figure out what that better way might be.

The Canadian way has interested me since I first saw it about 25 years ago. I figure there must be some design work on paper archived somewhere. The longer flame path and greater circulation through arch supports seems like a no brainer - yet we south of you didn't do it that way. Trade offs? Efficiency for ease of service?

If there's a contact point at the museum who could help me find documentation I'd be grateful to be put in touch.

dave

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:47 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 130
I have been interested in the Canadian arrangement of putting the burner in the rear for some time. With several locomotives I have worked on which have the deep narrow wood burning fireboxes that sit between the frames and extend down to just above the railhead it would make sense. It would serve to keep the fuel and the fire in the firebox as long as possible. I recently convinced Kloke to follow that layout on the Leviathan and the York. He positioned the burner under the mud ring, in the rear, pointing forward into a short brick arch. It works well. Also not having many feet of linkage running to the front of the firebox reduces lost motion and allows for a very fine tuning of the burner when on spot (something we seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time doing).

The draw back to that arrangement that I have experienced is that you can’t see the burner. This is a problem when you develop a carbon build up on the burner as a result of burning waste oil. With the burner up front it can be monitored more easily and corrected with a minimum of fuss.

Next time I engage in any ash pan work on our locomotives I am going to set a forward facing burner, just out of curiosity.

Chris De WItt


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