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 Post subject: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
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Chelatchie Boiler Works does not appear in the ASME online list of Stamp holders.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 435
Location: Missoula MT
Sounds like an issue for the operator and local inspectors/FRA to hash out, don't you think? Not that the question is wrong, but it does impugn(sic) on the reputation of the shop who is not here to rebut your inquiry.

Let other people's sleeping dogs lie.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
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Location: Chicago USA
I'm a bit unclear on how that works. ASME is a private organization. Can the government make the imprimatur of a private entity a requirement under law?

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:04 am
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If memory serves, we discussed this earlier and it was brought out that ASME and FRA requirements differ and that the FRA's requirements govern railroad locomotives.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
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Location: Southern California
The FRA governs locomotives and I am told that the appropriate Form 4 has been filed and accepted by the FRA. This from a member of the California State Railroad Museum staff.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
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Location: B'more Maryland
Some times I think a lap seam boiler blew up M Austin's puppy.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:11 am 
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Matt's questions are valid, and based on history of boiler issues from Hartford newsletters...

Matt is a boiler inspector... think about that... if you are in his jurisdiction you would be required to answer his questions like this one rationally. If you can't answer his questions you may be out of luck... sometimes the questions are not a challenge, but a way of asking why you made your decisions...

So a question like "is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME certified" could be answered by "no, it is under ICC/FRA jurisdiction." A discussion of the differences in rules and requirements under each set of rules could follow, along with why each would apply, and a discussion of any local rules...

We don't always like the questions, or the answers they lead to, but sometimes the answers lead to a positive conclusion.. and the questions are at their core meant to keep you and your locomotive or other boiler intact over the long run.

Randy

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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:04 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:39 pm
Posts: 55
In a tangential issue, I understand only a little about the Part 230 regulations, but I can't imagine a situation when the FRA requirements are not able to be met by the ASME rules. The ASME Code is a minimum requirement with nothing that says you can't build something stronger. There are even rules that allow for construction of vessels not specifically covered by the Code.

I am left then with two questions:

1 ) Why would anyone purchase a boiler that was not ASME certified;

2) If Part 230 requires new boilers to be built to a nationally recognized standard, don't those standards (ASME, PED, etc.) require a certain amount of inspection by qualified/certified individuals along the way?


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:04 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 384
I am left then with two questions:

1 ) Why would anyone purchase a boiler that was not ASME certified;
Answer: Since the demise of ASME Section III (locomotive boiler code) in the 1950's, any high pressure boilers must be built under ASME Section I (stationary boiler code), which, for the most part will cover locomotive boilers. However, there are some serious inconsistancies between ASME and FRA rules. These are, but not limited to: a)ASME code requires a "stop" valve EXTERNAL to the boiler in the main steam line. Loco boilers with traditional dome throttle and internal dry pipe do not have this. b)ASME construction allows for a factor of safety of 3.5, whereas FRA requires 4. The ESC has been asked to begin development of a proposal to ASME to help fix these and other inconsistancies.

2) If Part 230 requires new boilers to be built to a nationally recognized standard, don't those standards (ASME, PED, etc.) require a certain amount of inspection by qualified/certified individuals along the way?
Answer: YES. Inspections are done by an "Authorized Inspector" or "AI", who is a properly commissioned inspector employed by an insurance company under contract with the boiler builder. The AI is responsible for code compliance, and reports to his employer (insurance company), possibly a chief state inspector, and the National Board and ASME (in the sense that his commission can be revoked if he is guilty of improper inspections/misconduct). This inspection process occurs only if the boiler is built to ASME standards and is so stamped by a credentialed shop.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:04 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:20 pm
Posts: 26
A few comments:

1) ASME does not certify boilers. The builder and holder of the appropriate stamp is stating and attesting via an affidavit that the boiler was built or repaired in accordance with the applicable portions of the B&PV Code.

2) Since the locomotive under question is under FRA jurisdiction, the regulatory question is whether or not the FRA requires the R or P stamp.

3) Since the locomotive is under FRA jusridiction, does this preempt state regulation? There is always a question of jurisdiction and preemption when there is a federal regulatory authority.

4) If a state claims that it has jurisdiction over the questions of boiler safety, this raises another question. If the person who completes the FRA Form 4 is not an licensed engineer in that state, does that person face sanctions for the practice of engineering without a license, except if the person is a full time employee of the organization?

5) The main problem I see with a lack of an R or P stamp on a boiler is the potential difficulty in obtaining liability coverage for the boiler in question.

hth

pkurilecz


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:22 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
PKurilecz wrote:

5) The main problem I see with a lack of an R or P stamp on a boiler is the potential difficulty in obtaining liability coverage for the boiler in question.

hth

pkurilecz


An additional potential disadvantage is, if at some point in the future the engine were to be sold to an insular operation, the state jurisdiction may not recognize the FRA as compliance with any standard boiler code. As I recall from my days of association with IRM back before they were under FRA (but not in any capacity that actually dealt with these issues) the State of Illinois boiler inspector simply refused to recognize boilers built under the ICC regulations as conforming to any known code; basically, it either had an ASME code stamp, or they wouldn't certify it. The only exceptions were boilers that could be proven to be grandfatherd by operation in the state before the current code was adopted.

If I was spending the money on a new boiler, especially on a small locomotive like Sierra No.3, I'd want that ASME stamp to keep all my options open in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:20 pm
Posts: 26
Good point about a locomotive going from a non - insular to an insular RR. Though this has more to do with merchantability of a good as it would eliminate a class of buyers.

"the State of Illinois boiler inspector simply refused to recognize boilers built under the ICC regulations as conforming to any known code"

Once again, a bureaucrat exercised their authority without regard for the law and it is too expensive to challenge them. By definition and requirement, the ICC regulations did rely on a number of public codes, such as ASME, when it came to locomotive boiler design as the federal government cannot simply promulgate design standards via the regulatory process by fiat, even in the early days of the ICC.

ASME stamps were not generally used on early locomotives due to the ICC jurisdiction preempting local jurisdiction when the locomotive was built by a builder such as Baldwin or if the RR built the locomotive boiler themselves. Additionally the RR due to their economic size and political strength were often self insured above a certain amount.

hth

pkurilecz


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
PKurilecz wrote:
A few comments:

1) ASME does not certify boilers. The builder and holder of the appropriate stamp is stating and attesting via an affidavit that the boiler was built or repaired in accordance with the applicable portions of the B&PV Code.

2) Since the locomotive under question is under FRA jurisdiction, the regulatory question is whether or not the FRA requires the R or P stamp.

3) Since the locomotive is under FRA jusridiction, does this preempt state regulation? There is always a question of jurisdiction and preemption when there is a federal regulatory authority.

4) If a state claims that it has jurisdiction over the questions of boiler safety, this raises another question. If the person who completes the FRA Form 4 is not an licensed engineer in that state, does that person face sanctions for the practice of engineering without a license, except if the person is a full time employee of the organization?

5) The main problem I see with a lack of an R or P stamp on a boiler is the potential difficulty in obtaining liability coverage for the boiler in question.

hth

pkurilecz


§ 230.5 Preemptive effect.

The Locomotive Boiler Inspection Act (49 U.S.C. 20701–20703) preempts all State laws or regulations concerning locomotive safety. Napier v. Atlantic Coast Line R.R., 272 U.S. 605 (1926). However, FRA believes Congress did not intend to preempt State laws or regulations concerning rail operations over which FRA does not exercise jurisdiction. Therefore, in issuing this part, it is FRA's intent that State laws or regulations applicable to those rail operations to which this part does not apply ( i.e., insular tourist operations) not be preempted.

Insular operations would be like Dollywood, Tweetsie, Disney (all on their private property - no public highway grade crossings - D&SNG and C&TSRR are interstate and/or have public grade crossings), though I am not completely sure about the amusement park roads. As far as insurance goes, it may provide some rate differences, but highly unlikely. Railroad insurance for tourist and shortline operations rely on applicable state and FRA regulatory authority and their own standards - ASME stamps are not requirements in my experience.

Best,
Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:12 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:20 pm
Posts: 26
filmteknik wrote:
I'm a bit unclear on how that works. ASME is a private organization. Can the government make the imprimatur of a private entity a requirement under law?

Steve


In the domain of "safety" regulations, through the rulemaking process, a design code published by a non profit organization or by an industry trade association may be incorporated by reference into the CFR.

For example, the Natural Gas Pipeline Safety Act of 1968 authorized the Department of Transportation to form an Office of Pipeline Safety. Under the NGPSA the DOT/OPS was required to promulgate regulations that would enforce the mandate of the NGPSA. In the course of the rulemaking process ASME B&PV Section VII was adopted for unfired pressure vessels. As a result, any pressure vessel used in an interstate natural gas pipeline must be built to the ASME requirements and stamped as such.

Various industry and trade publications are often adopted and incorporated by reference during the rule making process. This is the result of the rulemaking process as it occurs between the regulated and the regulator.

Where a difficulty arises is when the incorporation by reference is initially made, it will include a particular edition for that design standard. As time progresses, the regulated industry has to keep track of what is in the required edition versus the current edition.

Another point to be made again, is that ASME does not "rate or certify" anything, (see the forward to the B&PV Code). The Vendor is attesting by an affidavit that the item in question was designed and built in accordance with the applicable requirements. It is the Vendor that is "certifying" the component in question meets the applicable requirements.

hth

pkurilecz


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 Post subject: Re: Is the new boiler for Sierra #3 ASME Certified?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:39 pm
Posts: 55
Mark Jordan wrote:
I am left then with two questions:

1 ) Why would anyone purchase a boiler that was not ASME certified;
Answer: Since the demise of ASME Section III (locomotive boiler code) in the 1950's, any high pressure boilers must be built under ASME Section I (stationary boiler code), which, for the most part will cover locomotive boilers. However, there are some serious inconsistancies between ASME and FRA rules. These are, but not limited to: a)ASME code requires a "stop" valve EXTERNAL to the boiler in the main steam line. Loco boilers with traditional dome throttle and internal dry pipe do not have this.
This is not the case and has been discussed here.

b)ASME construction allows for a factor of safety of 3.5, whereas FRA requires 4. The ESC has been asked to begin development of a proposal to ASME to help fix these and other inconsistancies.
The stress tables in ASME Section II, Part D are based in part on a safety factor of 3.5, but there is nothing that says a manufacturer could not design a boiler using the higher factor of safety (lower allowable stress). The ASME Code is a minimum requirement. It is very common in industry for customers to require design conditions far more restrictive/stringent than the Code allows.

2) If Part 230 requires new boilers to be built to a nationally recognized standard, don't those standards (ASME, PED, etc.) require a certain amount of inspection by qualified/certified individuals along the way?
Answer: YES. Inspections are done by an "Authorized Inspector" or "AI", who is a properly commissioned inspector employed by an insurance company under contract with the boiler builder. The AI is responsible for code compliance, and reports to his employer (insurance company), possibly a chief state inspector, and the National Board and ASME (in the sense that his commission can be revoked if he is guilty of improper inspections/misconduct). This inspection process occurs only if the boiler is built to ASME standards and is so stamped by a credentialed shop.
The role of the Authorized Inspector (AI) is clearly defined in the Code. What I want to know is, where has Part 230 been interpreted to mean that building to a nationally recognised standard means anyone can do it (ASME certified or not) as long as they follow the relevant rules of the Code being used. In the case of the ASME Code, inspections by an AI are required, certified welding procedures and welders are required. An ASME Form P-2 is the customer's garauntee that the boiler meets these requirements. A Form 4 does not make those garauntees. All I'm saying is if Part 230 allows anybody, certified or not, to build a locomotive boiler there should be some specific guidlines as to what is relevant and what is not. If these issues are addressed, then my understanding is wrong and I stand corrected.


Last edited by Stan Ottaway on Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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