Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:52 pm

Update & Additional Mystery Survivors:

On Wednesday, April 9th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #16, Rainier Rails wrote:

Four More Survivors:

All of these cars are at the Florida Railroad Museum in Parrish.

308. Washington Square (Lot #4887, Plan #3523A, 1925, 6C-3DR, PRR Broadway Limited)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1958) sold to member of FRRM (when??)

309. Gray (Lot #4804, Plan #3523, 1924, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1950) sold to member of FRRM (when??)

It was reported in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook in July of last year that the Washington Square was scrapped at FRRM. Some of the parts taken from the car will be applied to the Gray (which is now riding on trucks acquired from Ringling Bros.). The WA Square was reportedly in bad condition, as compared to the Gray. (Pictures of the Gray from 2014 taken by the late Dean Levin can be found in this thread, 7th post on page #17.)

459. & 460. In the same discussion in the Surviving Passenger Cars group, it was reported that 2 additional former circus-owned 6C-3DR sleepers (unsure if from Royal American or Strates) were sold to an individual in Northern California and moved in that direction at an unknown date; no further info on the car names was given.

Source:

1. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:00 pm

Another Mystery Survivor:

461. In May 2020 a Plan #2410 12S-1DR was listed for sale on Ozark Mountain, simply identified as a coach named Eagle, built circa 1920 for the CB&Q. Pictures on the Ozark website clearly show that it is indeed a 12-1, and that all original interior section partitions were removed and replaced with coach seating. The CB&Q did not acquire any 12-1's named Eagle at the 12/31/1948 divestiture, nor was there ever an all-steel 12-1 simply named Eagle in the Pullman fleet, so the actual name of this car remains unknown.

https://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/news/2020/05/11/heavyweight-coach-eagle/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:15 pm

2 Potential Survivors:

Kearton (Lot #4297, Plan #2410B, 1914, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2235 (1938)--sold to CRI&P (1948) to MofW #95064 resold to Tom Fischer, Hancock, IA (19??) resold to Illinois Railway Museum (1989)

Natural Bridge (Lot #3866, Plan #2410, 1911, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2377 (1942)--sold to CRI&P (1954) to MofW #96327 resold to Purple Martin Train, Atlantic, IA (19??)--possibly part of Griggsville Wild Bird Society collection, Griggsville, IL, before going to Purple Martin?

Both of the above cars are listed as extant on the Rock Island Technical Society's website, but the info for both is now considerably out-of-date. The Kearton is not listed on the Illinois RY Museum's website, and I have never seen a full list of who got what at the Purple Martin auction in 1995, so nothing newer for the Natural Bridge either.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Rock Island Technical Society list of extant passenger cars: https://web.archive.org/web/20111015225117/http://rits.org/www/equipment/ripassdisp.html

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:28 pm

Correction/Additional Info:

On Tuesday, May 13th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:

Another survivor:

326. Bambrough (Lot #4149, Plan 2410, 1913/42, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2502 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to CRI&P (1954) to D. Dusenberry-Midland RY Historical Association (Baldwin City, KS)

Like the 2 above cars, more info sourced from the Rock Island Technical Society website:

326. Bambrough (Lot #4149, Plan 2410, 1913, 12S-1DR, Erie)--Tourist #2502 (1942)--sold to CRI&P (1954) to MofW #96326 resold to John Killian, Kansas City (19??) resold to Kevin Jones, Kansas City (19??) resold to Brad Dusenberry-Midland RY Historical Association, Baldwin City, KS (1998)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Rock Island Technical Society list of extant passenger cars: https://web.archive.org/web/20111015225117/http://rits.org/www/equipment/ripassdisp.html

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:01 pm

Update:

On January 30th, 2015, 5th Post on Page #28, Rainier Rails wrote:

Thanks to information provided by another forum member, here's another survivor:

385. Lago Azul (Lot #4292, Plan #4025J/U, 1914/34/39/47, 8S-buf-lng-sol-obs, NdeM, ex-Plan #4025A Bridlespur Club [NKP], nee-Plan #2521A Las Plumas [Scenic Limited])--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Georgia RR (1956) later sold to Dante Stevens and renamed Survivor 1 (when??) then resold to unknown party (when??) and located in Atlanta.

As posted in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook in September 2020, the Lago Azul, as well as the former Woolworth/B&O/Monon/L&N business car Survivor (#800281; originally the Japauldon), and a former SCL caboose, were all moved from the estate of the late Dante Stephenson to the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer. (Besides NCTM, the Lago Azul was seriously looked at by at least two other interested parties.)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:26 pm

Another Survivor/Update:

On Sunday, April 13th, 2014, 13th Post on Page #17, Rainier Rails wrote:

As this thread has continued to identify surviving cars, I have noticed that there were several cars that had been acquired by two different private owners: Jack Ferris and Ruben Darby. Many of these cars had remained in Pullman ownership and pool service after the 12/31/1948 divestiture. However, at this time, a few of the cars acquired by either owner have yet to surface as being extant. Does anyone know the whereabouts of these cars?

Below are listed all the cars I have noted as acquired by either owner.

Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products owned:

Unknown Status:

317. St. Paul (Lot #4724, Plan #3410, 1923, 12S-1DR, ex-St. Helier)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby (1967)

A ways back now, I received from another forum member a scan of one of Herman Page's issues of his list of surviving Pullmans, specifically from July 1999. Although out-of-date, the info therein did provide more post-Pullman ownership details/history for several already noted survivors, as well as data for cars which up to this point have not come up in this thread. I have ID'ed a few additional cars from that old list which are still extant, 22 years later. One of these is the above:

317. St. Paul (Lot #4724, Plan #3410, 1923, 12S-1DR, ex-St. Helier, Los Angeles Limited)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Reuben Darby, d.b.a., Darby Wood Products (1967) resold to Spinner McGee's Steak House, Erie, PA (19??) now Spinner McGee's Posse, 4940 Peach St., Erie

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Herman Page's list of surviving Pullman heavyweights, July 1999 edition

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:54 pm

Another Survivor:

462. Hartley (Lot #3804, Plan #2416, 1910, plr [26]-1DR, PRR)--sold to SSW and rebuilt to diner lounge #242 (1940) rebuilt to business car #1 (2nd) Dixie (3rd) (4/1953) resold to Bovay Engineers, Landes, TX, as #1/#800171 (1970) resold to Cotton Belt RHS-Cotton Belt Depot Museum, Tyler, TX (19??) donated to San Antonio RR Heritage Museum, Elmendorf, TX (6/20/2019)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. "Southern Pacific Official Cars" by Donald M. Munger and Jeffrey Alan Cauthen (Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society, 2015)

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:32 pm

Update:

On Monday, January 21st, 2019, 3rd Post on Page #39, Rainier Rails wrote:

Survivor identified, thanks to MP Historical Society members Ted Ferkenhoff and Bill Pollard.

On Friday, January 17th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #11, Rainier Rails wrote:

Here's two additional mystery cars:

First car: according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #2585 10S-1DR-2C, which entered MP MofW service as #X3488 and is now in Wagoner, OK.

a. In August 2011, end view: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3483939 (Bob McGilvray photo)

b. In August 2011, side view: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3483938 (Bob McGilvray photo)

On Monday, January 27th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #13, Rainier Rails wrote:

292. According to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #2585 10S-1DR-2C, which entered MP MofW service as #X3488 and is now in Wagoner, OK.

292. Rio Mezcala (Lot #4328, Plan #2585B/D/E, 1915, 10S-1DR-2C, ex-Sikeston, Scenic Limited)--sold to MP (1948) to MofW MPX #3488 at Sedalia (March 1964) to museum, Wagoner, OK (unknown date)

It was reported in 2019 that this car had been scrapped at Wagoner, but a post in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook instead showed that the car had simply been moved from one location to another within Wagoner, sometime before February 2020.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:55 pm

Another Survivor:

463. Gainsborough (Lot #4887, Plan #3523A, 1925, 6C-3DR, 20th Century Limited)--sold to Arch Underwood-Texas Compress & Warehouse Company, Lubbock, TX, and rebuilt to business car as #1 Fair Deal (1950) (listed by Madden as Union Compress Company) later to Fred Underwood, stored at Underwood Trinity Warehouse, Lubbock (19??) moved to Lubbock Heritage Society/Bayer Museum of Agriculture, Lubbock (4/14/2016)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/local-news/the-underwood-pullman-car-now-on-public-display-in-lubbock/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:30 pm

Update:

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:

In addition, one of the websites linked to earlier in this thread, http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Fan/pass_cars.html, has some additional cars listed:

140. Villa Real (Lot #3880, Plan #3411, 1911/31/51, 10S-3DB, PRR, ex-Lenover)--Tourist #5141 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Wabash #5634 (1953) to N&W MofW #565634 to Herman Page and Al Sauer in Raleigh--picture taken in 2008: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3075/2570797837_d065cbc306_o.jpg (Earl C. Leatherberry photo)

This car was donated earlier this year by its sole owner, Mr. Sauer*, to the Illinois Railway Museum: https://www.irm.org/in-the-news/villa-real-donated/

*The inclusion (in the earlier post from 2014) of Mr. Page as part-owner was (as far as I can now determine) in error.

140. Villa Real (Lot #3880, Plan #3411, 1911/31, 10S-3DB, PRR, ex-Plan #2411/B 12S-1C-1DR Lenover [PRR])--Tourist #5141 (1951)--sold to Wabash #4318 (1953) leased to Mexico (1953?-1957?) to MofW foreman's car #5634 and assigned to Decatur wreck train (1957) to N&W via merger (1964) to #565634 (196?) to NS via merger (1982) resold to Al Sauer, Raleigh, NC (1995) donated to Illinois Railway Museum (2021)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. https://www.irm.org/in-the-news/villa-real-donated/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:17 pm

Mystery Solved:

On Monday, March 20th, 2017, 13th Post on Page #33, Rainier Rails wrote:

Another Survivor (as of 2006):

On Tuesday, August 26th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #21, Rainier Rails wrote:

Second, another private collection:

Thread from March 2003: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5336

As posted by Boyd Owens on page #2:

Boyd Owens wrote:

Prairie Du Chein, WI - MILW cabooses (1 wood, many steel), CB&Q coaches, CB&Q observation car, and various ex-BN MOW cars at various locations around town, all uncared for and rusting/rotting away. (All owned by same person.)

Boyd Owens wrote:

Just thought I'd ad a little more info on Prairie Du Chein for those who've never heard of the situation there. The owner of the railroad cars mentioned is a "collector" of many things. His "collection" includes the railroad equipment, a railroad hotel, a railroad depot, a turntable, many church steeples, a log cabin, and a Mississippi river towboat, to name just some of what he has.

Boyd Owens wrote:

It's all still there (as of last Dec, anyway). Unfortunately I haven't yet located my photos of it to scan yet. Don't know any car numbers either unfortunately. The owner is Mr. Blair Dillman.

Does anybody know if any of the cars in Prairie Du Chien are former Pullmans? Thanks in advance!

I found a photo on Flickr from April 2006 showing what I believe is the CB&Q observation car that Boyd listed in the above quoted posts from March 2003. Looking at the photo, this definitely appears to be a former Pullman, so that warrants a line item number for this car:

421. Unknown to CB&Q to MofW (car is painted mineral red) to BN? sold (when??) to Blair Dillman (Prairie Du Chien, WI).

The question being, is this car still around, 10 years after this photo was taken?

Here's a link to the photo I found: https://www.flickr.com/photos/oldonliner/136188886/in/photostream/

On Monday, March 20th, 2017, 14th Post on Page #33, jmlaboda wrote:

Hate to poo-poo on the parade but this is a Plan 3950 3 Compartment - 2 Drawing Room - lounge observation... of which none went to Burlington. The only other Pullman car type that had a similar window pattern as shown in the photo was the Plan 3959 3 Compartment - 2 Drawing Room - lounge observation car, the only real difference were two small windows adjacent to the vestibule on the Plan 3950 cars (as can be seen in the photo) while there was only one on the Plan 3959 cars. Add to it the fact that Burlington Northern painted their heavyweight passenger cars with a silver roof I believe it is fair to say that we are looking at a very old coat of primer and not the mineral read employed by BN.

Milwaukee Road use to serve Prairie du Chien, where the car is, and they bought five of these cars at the Pullman divestiture. While some further research will be needed I think I can confidently say that this is one of the five cars MILW bought in the Silver-series.

Will check with the Milwaukee Road group at Yahoo! Groups to see if I can come up with more information.

On Tuesday, March 21st, 2017, 15th Post on Page #33, o anderson wrote:

I recall this car. I first saw it around 1979 and 80 sitting on a siding at a lumber yard on the Richland Center spur of the old Milwaukee Road. I think at the time it was a shortline running blue high-hood FM switchers for road power. It was a Milwaukee MOW car, and I remember it seemed to have orange paint underneath several other paint styles. It was probably restorable then, and had the platform railings. The Richland Center branch had extremely light rail and might have even been original from being regauged from narrow gauge.

I later saw the car at Praire du Chein around 1991 and assumed it was the same car. I thought the line to PdC was embargoed from Lone Rock westward. Running down that track in this car must have been an interesting experience.

On Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017, 1st Post on Page #34, jmlaboda wrote:

The description should be: "...this is a Plan 3950N 3 Compartment - 2 Drawing Room - lounge observation rebuilt from a 2 DR - 1 Comp - lounge observation..."

On Wednesday, March 22nd, 2017, 2nd Post on Page #34, Rainier Rails wrote:

Thanks, Jerry and Olin, for the info!

Okay, that being the case, then this car is most likely one of the two MILW-owned Silver-series cars which are listed as being transferred to the MofW department in 1949:

Silver Beach to MofW #X-801.

Silver City to MofW #X-740.

In the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook in April of this year, the same photo on Flickr I had linked to in the above post from 2017 was shared, and in the following discussion a party who had considered purchasing the car years earlier confirmed that it was indeed the Silver Beach.

421. Silver Beach (Lot #4835, Plan #3950D/F/N, 1924, 3C-2DR-lng-obs, California Limited)--sold to MILW (1948) to MofW #X-801 (1949) to lumber company, Gotham, WI (19??) to Blair Dillman, Prairie du Chien, WI (19??)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:27 pm

Another Survivor:

This car came up in a post in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook back in August.

464. Joseph Lister (Lot #6339, Plan #4003, 1930, 8S-1DR-4DB, C&NW [Mayo Clinic service])--sold to C&NW (1948) to coach #328 (1958) to National Railroad Museum, Green Bay (19??)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:42 pm

Another Mystery Survivor:

Another car posted in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook, in February 2019:

465. Plan #2410 12S-1DR to unknown to ranch in Pastura, NM

Source:

1. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:51 pm

Another Mystery Survivor:

Another car that was posted in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook, just last week:

466. unknown car, reportedly to T&P, to MofW, to Belle's Chicken Dinner House, Abilene, TX

I have not been able to locate any photos (or Google street view) taken close enough to reveal what this car's configuration may be, only that it does not have pediment ends (educated guess, it is most likely a Plan #2410 12S-1DR, but we'll see...)

Source:

1. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:23 pm

2 More Mystery Survivors:

I became aware of these 2 cars while going through the Pullman photo links that fellow forum member Wil Hata had listed on his now-archived RR Preservation Index website.

467. & 468. The Dennison Railroad Depot Museum in Dennison, OH, has 2 unknown Plan #2410 12S-1DR cars on site, painted in PRR Tuscan and numbered as PRR #7004 and #7006 (to continue from their ex-PRR Plan #3992 buffet parlor lounge, the #7007 Lambs Club [line item #441])

Their website claims that one of these is a former WWII hospital car, and that the other came from the Ohio Railway Museum (along with their ex-PRR Plan #3523A 6C-3DR Times Square [line item #62]).

To my knowledge, the OH RY Museum only had one 12S-1DR in their collection, the ex-PRR Plan #3410B John Greenleaf Whittier (line item #36), which had gone to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9168. I don't believe that this 12-1 now at Dennison that reportedly came from the OH RY Museum is the Whittier, as that car was listed for sale earlier this year as part of the Iowa Pacific bankruptcy proceedings.

As for the other car, the same July 1999 issue of Herman Page's surviving Pullman list I referenced in earlier posts includes the following car at Dennison:

East Cumminsville (Lot #4868, Plan #3410A, 1925, Capitol Limited)--sold to B&O #7419 (1948) to MofW #911571 (1954) to Dennison Railroad Depot Museum (19??)

But again, I am not sure if the East Cumminsville is one of the two 12-1's now on site...from what few photos I could locate, I am leaning towards both being non-pediment-ended 2410's, whereas both the Whittier and East Cumminsville are later 3410 examples.

Photos:

1. 12-1 painted as PRR #7004: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4867341 (Nicholas Katz photo)

2. 12-1 painted as PRR #7006: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4867339 (Nicholas Katz photo)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. https://dennisondepot.org/equipment/

5. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars

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