Mystery/"Where Is It Now?" Car:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

Plan #3950 3C-2DR-lng-obs to U.S. Army hospital/mortuary car (194x) to unknown party and stored in Conway, SC (19??) photo from 1997

Again, not a car that has been discussed here before, even with having done so much work with Jerry and his photo index, and this photo being from his collection.

Photo:

1. 05/20/97: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=560823 (Russell Underwood photo from Jerry LaBoda collection)

Source:

1. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

A "Where Is It Now?" Car:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

Canonsburg (Lot #3813, Plan #2410, 1910, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8752 (1948) resold to (original) NS RY as MofW #912 (1952) to North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer (19??)

Again, another car which despite a photo in Jerry LaBoda's collection hasn't been discussed here previously. Does anyone have info on if this car is still at NCTM, if it has moved elsewhere, or if it is even still extant? Thanks in advance!

There was some confusion on Jerry's part between this car, and John Ringling's business car Wisconsin (built by Pullman in 1905), that went to NSRy in 1917 as the Virginia, later to the Atlantic & East Carolina RY and used as a fishing lodge (as the Carolina), then to NCTM, and is now at the John & Mable Ringling Museum of Art, in Sarasota, FL.

Photo:

1. 07/11/92: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=558840 (Russell Underwood photo from Jerry LaBoda collection)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman
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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

I believe this is actually 6-3 Sleeper "Saxe" or "Howe" as opposed to a 3-2 OBS. I think it was discussed on AOTT or Surviving Passenger Cars on Facebook, but my memory is a little jarred ATM. If it wasn't there, then I remember reading it somewhere but where exactly I don't recall.

It looks like a 3-2 because the drawing rooms are in the middle, but I believe the dead giveaway is the fact that if this car was a 3-2, they basically converted the OBS platform into a vestibule end and then re-plated the vestibule doors. A lot of unnecessary work for one observation car, whereas on a 6-3 all they need to do is just plate one of the vestibule ends.

A "Where Is It Now?" Car:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

Centsalva (Lot #6205, Plan #3979A, 1928, 8S-1DR-2C)--sold to SOO (1948) to #1258 (1955) resold to Historyland, Hayward, WI (19??) resold to Historic Dakota Central RR, Madison, SD (7/1976) resold to Escanaba & Lake Superior and stored in Wells, MI (19??)

On top of having been mentioned once previously in this thread, I found another mention of this car in a thread from 2005, at which time it was apparently still extant in Wells. But, given that that was already 16 years prior, does anyone have info on if this car is still in storage at Wells, if it has moved elsewhere, or if it is even still extant? Thanks in advance!

2005 thread (concerning another Plan #3979 8-1-2 that went to the Soo and has been discussed here before, the Centburne; see the last post for mention of the Centsalva): http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18097

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. "Private Passenger Car Annual Volume One: 1980", by David L. Briggs (RPC Publications, 1980)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

5. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Anime Railfan, thanks for the info!

Looking at the photo again, I'll second that, those center windows do indicate a Plan #3523 car, not Plan #3950 as Jerry had noted (I went with Jerry's ID, only because his info is usually so accurate).

As for where prior discussion took place, I did a keyword search in Surviving Passenger Cars, no hit for this car, so it was likely discussed in AOTT. I'm not in the AOTT group (guess I just didn't get around to joining), so I hadn't seen that discussion. That being said, if it was in AOTT, I'm guessing that was because the car is still out there? Any further info towards that end would be more than welcome!

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Another Potential Survivor:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

Lake Salvador (Lot #4725, Plan #3585/C, 1923, 10S-1DR-2C, Sunset Limited)--sold to SP #8185 (1948) resold to FdeP #202 Agustin Lara (1958) to unknown party in La Junta, Chihuahua, Mexico (19??) photo from 2003

This car did not come up in discussion here the other year with other survivors down in Mexico as posted by Wil Hata.

Photo:

1. 10/24/03: http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?april05/04-01-05/010_Pullman_10_1_2_dormitory.possibly_ex_Augustin_Lara_exx_SP_8185_exxx_Lake_Salvador_La_Junta_10_24_03.jpg (Ken Harrison photo)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman
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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Another Potential Survivor:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

Lita (Lot #4264, Plan #2416A, 1914, plr [26]-1DR, NYNH&H)--sold to N&W and rebuilt to coach #777 (1941) to MofW #56xxxx? (1950) resold to Norfolk, Franklin & Danville RR (1976) donated to North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer (1979)

Does anyone have info on if this car is still at NCTM, if it has moved elsewhere, or if it is even still extant? Thanks in advance!

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman

5. N&W Steel Passenger Cars PDF, N&W Historical Society
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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Another Potential Survivor:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

McQuade (Lot #4764, Plan #3410, 1924, 12S-1DR)--sold to SOU #2496 (1948) resold to Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum (1966) later resold to unknown party (19??)

This car came up in one mention in this thread years ago as quoted above, but a quick Google search turns up no other results, i.e., no info on where this car went after TVRM. Was it scrapped, or still out there somewhere? Thanks in advance!

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman
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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Another Potential Survivor:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

Mountain Mills (Lot #4690, Plan #2521D, 1923, 10S-lng-obs, Monon)--sold to Royal American Shows as #60 (1948) reportedly at Circus World Museum (Baraboo, WI)

This car came up in discussion in the Surviving Passenger Cars group on Facebook back in March of this year, also referencing Wil Hata's website. It was said that no photos or other mentions of the car in Baraboo could be found. The museum does have another ex-RAS-owned Plan #3521A car, the Monte Baldo (line item #376).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman

5. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook
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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

I was actually the person who posted/asked about Mountain Mills on Facebook in that group :) I believe it spiraled from my asking about the full extent of the Passenger Cars that Circus World had (which also spiraled into finding out their open-air cars are ex-Milwaukee Road Baggage Cars #1907 and #1910, Barney & Smith Products constructed between 1911 and 1913).

Mr. Peter Shrake, the Archivist at Circus World Museum, has confirmed this to me through email that Mountain Mills is stored on the CWM property in Baraboo but no photos of the car exist after its life at Royal American Shows.

In regards to Saxe/Howe, I do not believe the car was ever discussed in Ahead of the Torch, or any train group in Facebook. I read the information on another website but if you asked me to find it again I'd be as stumped as you.

More Potential Survivors:

Like several cars already discussed, these are all potential surviving DAFX simulator cars which came up in a discussion in the Surviving Passenger Cars group in November 2018. I don't have much info to go on besides what was said in the group, i.e., no DAFX numbers, hence no Pullman names/history, and in some cases nothing beyond that the cars were known to be there in the past. It is also possible that some of these are not simulators rebuilt from excess sleepers, but are instead WWII-era ex-Army hospital cars. Example, for that reason, I excluded 2 cars mentioned that were part of the Dorothy M. Bush Museum fiasco down in Florida years ago now, as those were known to be ex-hospital cars (that also involved the Seneca Valley as discussed earlier in this thread).

It was stated that the URHS owns a total of 5 of these cars, 3 stored at Boonton, NJ, and 2 still on site at Earle NWS (Colts Neck Yard), but at least one of these is known from photos to be an ex-hospital car, not a simulator.

2? cars were reported as stored as late as 2003 near TTCI outside of Pueblo, CO.

2? cars were reported as located at the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, OH (I tried looking for these cars using satellite imagery, but couldn't locate either car, at least outdoors).

2? cars were reported as stored at Barksdale AFB in Bossier City, LA.

2? cars were reported as stored as late as 2001-2002 on the Atlanta & St. Andrews Bay in Lynn Haven, FL (near Panama City); these cars had come from Eglin AFB and were listed for sale at that time. The poster later went to the same storage location a few years later, and both cars were gone, no info on sale or scrapped.

In addition to all the potential above cars, and as discussed previously in this thread, there were upwards of at least 4 that had been located at Hill AFB outside of Ogden, UT. At least one of these is still extant as discussed, the DAFX #31 (ex-John M. Forbes; line item #392).

3 of the cars that had been at Hill ended up in storage in Harrisville, UT, with photos showing them there as late as June 2005. There were several other cars stored there as well, at least one former diner (as DAFX #2) and at least 2 WWII-era ex-hospital cars (at least 1 of the 2 rebuilt as a mobile command center).

William Watts Folwell (Lot #6334, Plan #3979A, 1929, 8S-1DR-2C, Blackhawk)--sold to U.S. Gov't and rebuilt to DAFX #6 (1962)

Alpine Clover (Lot #6357, Plan #3958A, 1930, 14S, Columbine)--sold to U.S. Gov't and rebuilt to DAFX #22 (1962)

Caddo (Lot #4945, Plan #3410A, 1926, 12S-1DR, Sunset Limited)--sold to U.S. Gov't and rebuilt to DAFX #24 (1961)

^^The DAFX #24 was misidentified in the photos from 2005 as the DAFX #34, but the highest-numbered simulator was the (preserved) DAFX #31.

Satellite imagery shows the industrial park where these cars were located has been partially rebuilt/redeveloped (still as an industrial park), with many but not all of the older warehouses having been replaced by new construction, and many of the sidings that served said warehouses are now gone. There was no immediate sign of any of the above 3 cars on site. However, I did spot at least several pieces of rolling stock still stored on the northern edge of the park, including the last remaining dome from the Train of Tomorrow that was rescued years ago now from a scrapyard in Idaho. Any more recent information on these cars' whereabouts (if still extant) would be most welcome.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Wil Hata's Railroad Preservation Index: https://web.archive.org/web/20201017213841/https://sites.google.com/site/railwaypreservationphotoindex/by-railroad/pullman

5. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook
_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Anime,

Thanks for the confirmation!

That would make the Mountain Mills...

482. Mountain Mills (Lot #4690, Plan #2521D, 1923, 10S-lng-obs, Monon)--sold to Royal American Shows as #60 (1948) to Circus World Museum (Baraboo, WI) (19??)

More Potential Survivors:

These cars all come from Herman Page's Pullman list of July 1999. None have been discussed before in this thread. The info is now 22 years old, but if anyone has info on if any of these cars are still extant today, either at the locations listed from back then or elsewhere, that would be most appreciated! (Same goes on if any scrapping dates are known for now-gone cars in the below listing.)

Lago Manso (Lot #4049, Plan #4025J/U, 1912/33/39, 8S-rest-lng, NdeM, ex-Plan #4025A Minneapolis Club, CRI&P, nee-Plan #2521 10S-lng-obs Marietta, Overland Limited)--sold to NYC for scrap (1958) resold to Gold Coast Tours, Port Washington, NY (19??)

Rankoka (Lot #4234, Plan #2410A, 1913, 12S-1DR)--sold to B&O #7446 (1948) to MofW #X-4381 (1953) to Aberdeen, Carolina & Western and stored in Aberdeen, NC (19??)

Corliss (Lot #4304, Plan #2412C/U, 1914/37, 16S)--Tourist #4221 (1937)--Tourist #6070 (1950)--sold to GN MofW #O-3140 (1953) to R. Dringenburg-Midland RHS as the Indiana and stored in Kansas City, MO (19??)

Angeline (Lot #4365, Plan #2901/A, 1916, plr [18]-buf-lng-obs, B&O)--renamed/rebuilt 1929 to Plan #2901A Asbury Park (with 30 parlor chairs)--renamed to Plymouth Rock (1929) renamed to Martin Van Buren (1930)--sold to McCoy Circus (1938) later to unknown party and stored at Midwest RHF in Cleveland (19??)

Clemenceau (Lot #4612, Plan #2410F, 1921/38, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2198--sold to MP MofW #X-4103 (1953) stored somewhere in Colorado (19??)

McEwen (Lot #4764, Plan #3410, 1924, 12S-1DR, North Coast Limited)--sold to PRR #8872 (1948) resold to LIRR as commuter club #2001 Syosset (1957) later resold to Keith Riley and located somewhere in NJ (197?)

Madley (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8863 (1948) to MofW #492989 (1962) located on Northern Central in New Freedom, PA (19??)

Retort (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8916 (1948) to MofW #493731 (1962) to PC via merger (1968) to Conrail (1976) later stored in Columbia, PA (19??)

McElrath (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR)--sold to B&O #7440 (1948) to MofW #X-4523 (1954) located at unknown scrap dealer in Cincinnati (19??)

Manufacturers' Club (Lot #6274, Plan #3989A/U, 1929, 8S-buf-sol-lng-obs, PRR)--sold to PRR #8624 (1948) to MofW #492389 (1957) later resold to Ron Jedlicka and located at Buckeye Steel Car, Columbus, OH (19??)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Herman Page's list of surviving Pullman heavyweights, July 1999 edition

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Update:

147. Sea Island (Lot #4296, Plan #4010, 1914/30, 6S-1DR-lng, SAL, ex-Seaboard, nee-Plan #2412C 16S Charing Cross, NYC)--sold to SOU #2524 (1948) to coach #1045 (1955) to MofW #960421 (19??) to Louisiana RY Heritage Trust (19??) to Louisiana Steam Train Association (19??) scrapped circa 2012-2014

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Update:

191. City of Danville (Lot #6065, Plan #3957K, 1927/55, plr [37], WAB, ex-Plan #3957B plr [26]-1DR-obs Diplomat, Ambassador)--sold to WAB (1948) renamed/rebuilt to City of Danville (1955) to N&W via merger?? (1964) to Washington, D.C. Chapter NRHS, as the Diplomat with platform restored (19??) to Eastern Shore RY Museum, Parksley, VA (19??) ESRM closed and car reported as resold to Colebrookdale RR, Colebrookdale, PA (2021)

It was initially reported in this forum in January 2020 that the car had been sold to the Colebrookdale and was scheduled to be moved out that month, but numerous delays pushed the move to late July 2021: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44114

*Does anyone have info on when the D.C. Chapter acquired this car? Was it before or after the WAB-N&W merger?

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.