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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:41 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
Posts: 84
"I have copies of business car diagrams going back to the early days of Southern Railway and I have Mike Palmieri's List of Pullman cars that the Southern acquired before and after divestiture and based on what I am seeing I do not believe that #8 was rebuilt from a Pullman sleeper... all of the cars prior to when it was released from Chattanooga car shop on 19July48 are accounted for (6 baggage - buffet cars, all rebuilt to business cars #2, #3, #4, #6, #7 and #9). Between August '45 when the last of the first six cars were acquired and August '48, when the next Pullman car was acquired, there were no other cars acquired from Pullman."

Jerry-
If not a Pullman car where did this one come from? Dimensionally the car is identical to the others and most other base cars (coaches, dining cars ) would be shorter or longer. Can I get a copy of Palmieri's list? I would be interested in checking it against some of my notes.

Also does anyone know what happened to WALSALL (2410F 4591) or IPSUS (2410F 4574) ONAWA (2410F 4614) and HASLETT (2410F 4525) that went to Southern? If I've missed them in the previous posts, I apologize.

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:56 am
Posts: 1330
Location: Roanoke Va.
Not mentioned so far has been N&W 521402, an ex-bunk/diner from the Bluefield Wreck Train. It was originally the 3Comp//2DR/Obs "National Heights", built for B&O service in 1925, plan 3959-D, lot 4886. It has been the personal project of one of our members since 1999, with volunteer support from a number of our folks.

https://www.facebook.com/nationalheightsrailcar?fref=ts

I'm also a bit suspicious of the number of N&W cars identified as ex-PN class coaches. The N&W was known for frequently renumbering cars. They bought a number of cars from Pullman after WWII to replace the last wooden cars in MofW service. To my knowledge, all of the PN Class cars were converted circa 1940/1941 from tourist sleepers, either by Pullman of the N&W. None of the cars had air conditioning, and therefore no roof ducts. I would suspect that any ex-N&W MofW Pullman with roof ducts was a post-war acquisition, and therefor never a PN coach.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:25 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3404
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Gary Gray wrote:
Not mentioned so far has been N&W 521402, an ex-bunk/diner from the Bluefield Wreck Train. It was originally the 3Comp//2DR/Obs "National Heights", built for B&O service in 1925, plan 3959-D, lot 4886. It has been the personal project of one of our members since 1999, with volunteer support from a number of our folks.

https://www.facebook.com/nationalheightsrailcar?fref=ts


I have only one word--WOW!

What a hulk they started with!

I just hope everyone lives long enough to see her completed. To see such dedication to bringing such a basket case back from the dead gives inspiration to us all.

Now, if only we could get more help and "respect" from others, things might not take so long and we could get more done!


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:23 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Gary, for the info on National Heights!

218. National Heights

Here's two more survivors:

219. Lake Ainslie (Lot #4728, Plan #3585, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C, SOU)--sold to SOU #2404 (1948) to Heart of Dixie #001 (1964)--see here: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7021/6469159789_587959450c_o.jpg (Alan Jones photo)

220. Shrewsbury (Lot #4351, Plan #2585D, 1915/51, 10S-1DR-2C, SOU)--Tourist #5139 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to SOU and converted to baggage-express #4527 (1953) to Heart of Dixie--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1761476 (Dave Mullison photo)

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. SOU heavyweight disposition information from: http://southernmodeler.info/ProtoInfo.htm (second link under Passenger Trains--Excel Spreadsheet)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:47 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
If not a Pullman car where did this one come from? Dimensionally the car is identical to the others and most other base cars (coaches, dining cars ) would be shorter or longer.


A group of three dining cars, one owned by the CNO&TP (3867) and two owned by the AGS (4140, 4141) matches the length over buffers which was 82'2". The CNO&TP car was stricken from the diagram by 1957, as was AGS 4140, while 4141 soldiered on for several more years. The 4140 was destroyed in a derailment. I suspect but can't confirm that #8 was rebuilt from the CNO&TP diner.

Bummer... checked the 1960 ORPTE and the CNO&TP diner was still in service so it could not be the one used to create SOU #8. Not sure of the date when AGS 4140 was involved in a derailment but wonder if maybe it was the core used to create #8.

As for Mike's list I am attaching it to the bottom of this post.

Quote:
lso does anyone know what happened to WALSALL (2410F 4591) or IPSUS (2410F 4574) ONAWA (2410F 4614) and HASLETT (2410F 4525) that went to Southern? If I've missed them in the previous posts, I apologize.


WALSALL (a.k.a. Pull TC 3087) apparently was never operated as a revenue car by the SOU. No number or disposition (rebuilt to) is listed for this car.
IPSUS (a.k.a. PULL TC 3094) the same as above.
ONAWA (a.k.a. PULL TC 2294) the same as above.
HASLETT (a.k.a. PULL TC 2597) the same as above.


Attachments:
SRY HW LIST.xls [85 KiB]
Downloaded 153 times

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Last edited by jmlaboda on Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:45 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
This is likely off-topic and I apologize for it but I am hoping the many who are involved with this thread might be able to shed some light on two "mystery" cars I have had no success in finding the history too.

The Kate Shelley car is on display at Boone & Scenic Valley and has been for quite some time. Does anyone know anything about this car, its type and its history???
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cnw6605.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1244450

A car now in use on the Little River RR that previously was owned by the Michigan Southern and before that seeing use on the Tuscola and Saginaw Bay. Named The Solomon has alluded me as far as its origins goes and I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me anything about it.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cnw6605.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1244450

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1688
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Jerry, for the clarification on SOU business car #8! Tomorrow, I'll see if I can find anything on those mystery cars.

Found some additional survivors via Jerry LaBoda's website, which is how I've been finding most of these:

221. Little Cave (Lot #4412, Plan #4061B, 1916/41, 14S, SOU, ex-Parowan)--Tourist #3139 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to SOU and converted to baggage-express AGS #4065 (1953) to KRYM--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2293592 (James Hinman photo)

222. Dorado (Lot #4540, Plan #4061, 1918/37, 14S, SOU)--Tourist #3009 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to SOU and converted to baggage-express NO&NE #4529 (1953) to SERM--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1020915 (Rob Furney, Jr. photo), and here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=890957 (Don Woodward photo)

223. Tufts College (Lot #4531, Plan #4042B, 1918/32/37, 10S-2DB-1C, SOU, ex-John Slidell, nee-Trollope)--sold to SOU #2452 (1948) converted to baggage-express #4531 (1961) to Mississippi Great Southern Chapter NRHS--see here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1479571 (Anthony Alex photo), and here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1479570 (Anthony Alex photo)

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:30 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:22 pm
Posts: 69
I think (needs to be verified) this is now PV Dearing, and lives at Orange Park, FL

Rainier Rails wrote:
Another "where is it now?" car:

Mt. Thielsen (Lot #4998, Plan #3521A, 1926, 10S-lng-obs, L&N)--sold to L&N (1948) converted to business car #375 (1949?) to C&NW #401 (3rd) (1982) to #401 Chicago (1985) to UP (1995) to Fleming Company (1998)

The following are two pictures taken by Marty Bernard of the #401 in the Western Ave. Coach Yard in Chicago, in September 1989 (the dome next to the #401 is ex-MILW #53, now owned by the Friends of 261):

a. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=905865

b. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=905866


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3404
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Wow, 223 heavyweight Pullmans and still counting!

How many would we need to run a heritage sleeper service, something along the lines of what Ed Ellis is doing? How big could it be?

How big would our wallets have to be?


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
I think (needs to be verified) this is now PV Dearing, and lives at Orange Park, FL


The Dearing is the CNW business car that was sold to N.C. DoT, formerly CNW 403 [2nd], exx-CGW 100, nee-PULL Thompson.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:09 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Rainier Rails wrote:
Another "where is it now?" car:

Mt. Thielsen (Lot #4998, Plan #3521A, 1926, 10S-lng-obs, L&N)--sold to L&N (1948) converted to business car #375 (1949?) to C&NW #401 (3rd) (1982) to #401 Chicago (1985) to UP (1995) to Fleming Company (1998)

The following are two pictures taken by Marty Bernard of the #401 in the Western Ave. Coach Yard in Chicago, in September 1989 (the dome next to the #401 is ex-MILW #53, now owned by the Friends of 261):

a. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=905865

b. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=905866
MRLX1020 wrote:
I think (needs to be verified) this is now PV Dearing, and lives at Orange Park, FL
jmlaboda wrote:
The Dearing is the CNW business car that was sold to N.C. DoT, formerly CNW 403 [2nd], exx-CGW 100, nee-PULL Thompson.


Dearing is line item #93 back on page #3 of this thread. The Mt. Thielsen still remains a mystery, as I have not found any leads on this car past its sale by UP in 1998 to the Fleming Company--as a side note, does anyone know what the Fleming Company is/was? Google wasn't very helpful in this instance.

Another survivor:

224. Point Noire (Lot #4961, Plan #3584A, 1926, 10S-2DR, SOU)--sold to GS&F #6204 (1948) converted to baggage-express #6457 (1952) to SERM--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1787563 (Dave Mullison photo)

Another mystery car (actually, two cars):

SOU MofW baggage #960420 (2nd), renumbered from #960421 (you can see in the photo where the "0" was stenciled over the "1"). This is one of the baggage cars rebuilt from a Tourist Sleeper (lack of air conditioning ducts). This car is now in storage in Evansville, IN. Is the #960420 (2nd) located at Mid-America Locomotive & Car Repair (MALX)?? I know this is where the SOU #2021, #2017, CNO&TP #3402, and SOU #2209 ended up. SOU #2523 was also stored in Evansville before being acquired by Iowa Pacific--was it also owned by MALX?? See here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2727448 (Zachary Walters photo)

The first #960420 was former coach #1038, which had been converted from SOU #2459 Windsor Locks (ex-Radcliffe), a 10S-buf-lng-obs built in 1918/32 in Lot #4531 to Plan #4027G. Does anyone know the disposition of the first #960420?? See here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1141932 (Marty Bernard photo)

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Information from the SOU heavyweight purchase/disposition spreadsheet compiled by Michael Palmieri at: http://southernmodeler.info/ProtoInfo.htm

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Last edited by Rainier Rails on Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:50 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another "where is it now?" car:

National Road (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-club-lng-barber, built for National Limited)--used by B&O as an upholstery/paint shop and foreman's office in Chicago between June 1944 and May 1947, when it was sold to General Motors for use as an office car with the Train of Tomorrow, painted in the same scheme. It was later used by GM/EMD as a training car. It later ended up in private ownership/display, painted in a tone of Tuscan Red with BALTIMORE & OHIO in the letterboard.

Painted for use with the Train of Tomorrow: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/emd_school.jpg (North East Rails photo)

At some point under private ownership, it was parked with at least one PS stainless-sheathed lightweight, with a set of steps at one end for access. Does anyone know the identity of this other car, and where the cars were located??

http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-nr-r.jpg (Fallen Flags photo)

http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-cbnr-abr.jpg (Fallen Flags photo)

At some other point, it was on display without the lightweight. Does anyone know where this was?

http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-combine-r.jpg (Fallen Flags photo)

This last photo was used by Nathaniel Guest (user handle "N.C. Guest") when he posted a thread back in 2010 titled "Searching for Heavyweights" in which he inquired about the current location of the National Road. I had linked to his thread back on page #3 of this thread, and here's the link again: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30147

Sources:

1. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

2. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
Posts: 84
I think we are see the result of some arbitrary renumbering that seemed to take place form time to time in the Southern Railway work equipment. When coach 1037 was sent to Chattanooga as the 960418 the local wreckmaster wanted a car with two vestibules so TVRM traded the 1208 for the 1037. In 1996 the 960418 was sold by NS when most of the remaining derricks and rider cars were sold off. It was still in the Work Equipment records as the 1208.

I don't think that the 960420 (2nd) is a former Pullman car. As far as I know all of the conversions were given round roofs and both doors were the same size. The car looks more like a baggage express like 990930 (ex 130) which has the two different door sizes. In the Southern Railway Color guide there is a picture of the 100 which appears to be identical. Its possible that the car was renumbered in a swap between wreckmasters.

The original 960421 was the former coach 1045 (ex-SEA ISLAND) which is at LASTA. I think the 960420 (1st) ex-1038 may be in Knoxville (ETA or Hayneshopcat?) along with at least one sister. I think those cars came to them from Mid America.

Robert Toobs 3854B 6284 was converted to coach 1042 and went to Conrail 25 in 1983 it is now at GSMR

Sea Side 4010 4216 was converted to coach 1043 and went to Conrail 26 in 1983 it is now at GSMR

Vail was converted to a Grill Lounge 691 by Central of Georgia. It later entered Derrick Service and sold for scrap. Enroute to scrap it was acquired by TVRM and then later sold to Savannah Roundhouse. It is still stored in Chattanooga

Tim Andrews
Chattanooga

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
This is one of the baggage cars rebuilt from a Tourist Sleeper (lack of air conditioning ducts).


Ah... no. This was never a Pullman sleeper, too short and four-wheel trucks. While the overall layout of the car (the placement of the doors) is like the baggage - express cars in the 100 - 499 range of cars rostered by the SR the doors themselves are not typical of the doors used... maybe rebuilt doors applied when the car went into MofW service.

Quote:
National Road... where the cars were located??


George Elwood lists all three shots, taken by Bob Rathke, were at Rocky River, Oh. Aside from these three shots there is no other evidence that the car was there.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:17 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Tim, for the clarification on MofW #960420 (2nd) and for the info on Windsor Locks, Sea Island, Robert Toombs, Seaside, and Vail!

225. Windsor Locks (Lot #4531, Plan #4027G, 1918/32, 10S-buf-lng-obs, SOU, ex-Radcliffe)--sold to SOU #2459 (1948) converted to coach #1038 (1954) to MofW #960420 (1st) to unknown party in Knoxville. Private owner or Old Smoky?

226. Robert Toombs (2nd) (Lot #6284, Plan #3584B, 1929, 10S-2DR, SOU)--sold to SOU #2436 (1948) converted to coach #1042 (1955) to Conrail #25 (1983) to GSMR #25 Piedmont--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=557138 (Jerry LaBoda photo)

227. Seaside (Lot #4216, Plan #4010, 1913/30, 6S-1DR-lng, PRR, ex-Kokomo)--sold to SOU #2525 (1948) converted to coach #1043 (1955) to Conrail #26 (1983) to GSMR #26 Southland--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=557141 (Jerry LaBoda photo)

228. Vail (Lot #4649, Plan #2416D, 1922, 1DR-plr [26 seats], PRR)--sold to CofG and converted to grill lounge #691 (1941) to MofW to TVRM to Savannah Roundhouse and stored in Chattanooga

Thanks, Jerry, for the clarification on MofW #960420 (2nd)!

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