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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:02 am 
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Thanks, ETA, for the info on the ex-NP car in Yakima!

The fact that the car is a solarium lounge narrows the search considerably:

NP only acquired three cars with a solarium:

Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975X, 1930, 3C-2DR-buf-sol-lng-obs)--sold to NP (1948) and leased to Pullman

Colonial (Lot #6385, Plan #4002B, 1930, 1DR-buf-plr [28 seat]-sol-lng)--sold to NP (1945)

Columbian (Lot #6385, Plan #4002B, 1930, 1DR-buf-plr [28 seat]-sol-lng)--sold to NP (1945)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:47 am 
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In the "Mystery Cars" post on page #14, I forgot to include two cars mentioned by Jerry LaBoda back on page #8 (line item nos. 298 and 299):

jmlaboda wrote:
I am hoping the many who are involved with this thread might be able to shed some light on two "mystery" cars I have had no success in finding the history too.

The Kate Shelley car is on display at Boone & Scenic Valley and has been for quite some time. Does anyone know anything about this car, its type and its history???
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cnw6605.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1244450

A car now in use on the Little River RR that previously was owned by the Michigan Southern and before that seeing use on the Tuscola and Saginaw Bay. Named The Solomon has alluded me as far as its origins goes and I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me anything about it.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cnw6605.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1244450

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:38 am 

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148. Central House (Lot #4886, Plan #3959, 1925, 3C-2DR-lng-obs)--sold to US Government and converted to hospital ward car (1943) to LASTA and converted to hospitality car as LSTX #5 Jefferson--according to the LASTA website, this car carried the name Azalea while serving as a hospital ward car.


Here is a current set of photographs for this car taken January 2014... I recall 30 years ago seeing this car in Hialeah Florida abandoned ( or so it looked ) painted orange and silver and named "Azalea"... It is likely this name was on the car after its service ended and was in some type of private ownership.

Photographs were taken outside of New Orleans, La


Dean Levin


Attachments:
LAS1.jpg
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LAS2.jpg
LAS2.jpg [ 66.23 KiB | Viewed 6151 times ]
LAS3.jpg
LAS3.jpg [ 56.18 KiB | Viewed 6151 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:16 pm 
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Thanks, Dean, for the photos of Central House!

ETA, any luck on finding the Yakima photos?

Thanks in advance.

Subtotals by Location:

US:

AL: 2
AK: 1
AZ: 2
CA: 17
CO: 19 (includes SLRG)
CT: 9
FL: 8
GA: 9
IL: 14
IN: 4
IA: 2
KS: 4 (includes BNSF)
KY: 9
LA: 8
MD: 5
MA: 2
MI: 7
MN: 6
MS: 2
MO: 2
MT: 2
NE: 4
NH: 2
NJ: 11
NY: 6
NC: 15
OH: 9
OK: 5
OR: 7
PA: 30 (includes NS)
SC: 1
TN: 16
TX: 10
VA: 13
WA: 11
WV: 2
WI: 6
WY: 1 (UP)

Washington, D.C.: 1

Unknown: 11

Canada:

Alberta: 1
New Brunswick: 1

Mexico:

Mexicali: 1
Puebla: 2

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
240. N&W 12S-1DR owned by Bay Coast RR (Cape Charles, VA)--anyone know the history of this one??--see here: [url]http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=679644[/url] (William Grimes photo), here: [url]http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2692228[/url] (Jonathan Ferraro photo), and here: [url]http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3413817[/url] (Marty Bernard photo)


Well, I think I might at least know what the Pullman name for this car was, prior to being sold to the Norfolk & Western.

Based on some posts on several Yahoo! Groups I started looking at the detail of the BCR car and started going through Tom Madden's Pullman Car Construction Records to see what I could find as far as Plan 3410/3410A sleepers that the N&W, Nickel Plate Road and Wabash acquired at or after the Pullman divestiture and here is what I have come up with about this car.

I have considered that Pullman Plan 2410H sleepers were very similar to the Plan 3410/3410A cars but were roughly a foot shorter in length and comparing shots of the BCR car to the well known NS 521414 Spirit of Tim Drake (the only Plan 2410H sleeper that the N&W acquired) and can say without a doubt that the BCR car is a Plan 3410/3410A car based on the placement of the splice plates (the narrow double riveted strips of metal between the lower side sheets). It is also evident that the BCR car was not equipped with Air Conditioning (at least not while in service for Pullman), evident by the lack of AC ducts).

Someone mentioned a photo of a N&W Plan 3410 sleeper 521410 that is shown in the Norfolk & Western Color Guide by Morning Sun Books and I considered it as possibly being the car on the BCR but that car had 4-tier steps and the BCR car has 3-tier steps, but this appears to be a great identifier as all but one of the Plan 3410/3410A sleepers that the N&W had were either built with 4-tier steps or rebuilt with 4-tier steps. See the attached image for a comparison shot of the two types. Note that on the 4-tier steps the 3rd step from the bottom is basically even with the bottom of the car side and the same can be seen in the shot of 521410 while on a 3-tier step the 2nd step would be approximately 4" below the bottom edge of the sides. This appears to be the key to which car this actually is!!!

N&W Mailing List member Marty Flick brought up cars that were acquired by the Nickel Plate Road and Wabash so I began to go through Tom Madden's Pullman Car Construction Records to see what I could find.

In addition to the Pullman 12-1s that N&W acquired at the time of the Pullman divestiture that continued to see use: Chilhowie, Galax, Lowry, Sunstar Rose and Vulcan (all Pullman Mechanical AC equipped) it also acquired two that did not have AC that had been converted to tourist cars: PULL TC 5041 (ex-Berthold) and TC 5122 (ex-St. Cloud). The Plan 3410/3410A sleepers acquired by the Wabash all had Ice AC and four-tier steps (Dorchester, East Arcadia, Gloucester, Knollwood, McGlone, McMurray and Tuscaloosa) while the two acquired by the NKP (East Berkshire and East Charleroi) had Pullman Mechanical AC and 4-tier steps.

Based on the details that I have mentioned above I do believe that this car is TC 5122 (ex-St. Cloud), the only car that retained its 3-tier as-built steps and I am reasonably confident with this identification. Now if the N&W Maintenance of Way number/numbers (some cars carried two different numbers) can be determined we will have the complete (or nearly complete) history of this car.


Attachments:
Pullman 3-tier - 4-tier steps.jpg
Pullman 3-tier - 4-tier steps.jpg [ 94.25 KiB | Viewed 6050 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:00 pm 
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Thanks, Jerry, for identifying the St. Cloud!

240. St. Cloud (Lot #4724, Plan #3410, 1923/51, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #5122 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to N&W (1953) to MofW to Tidewater Chapter?? to Bay Coast RR

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:55 am 
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ETA--any luck on finding the photos of the ex-NP car in Yakima??

Thanks in advance.

Subtotals by Purchaser:

20th Century Fox: 2
Algoma Central: 1
AT&SF: 4 (2 LTP)
ACL: 7 (6 LTP)
B&O: 8 (6 LTP)
Belt RY of Chicago: 1
B&M: 1
CN/GTW: 6
CP: 1 (1 LTP)
CofG: 2
Chapman S. Root-Root Company: 1
Charleston & Western Carolina: 1
Chattahoochee Valley: 1
C&O/PM: 3 (1 LTP)
CB&Q: 3
CGW: 4 (3 LTP)
C&NW: 3 (3 LTP)
CRI&P: 1
Circus World Museum: 1
Crown Metal Products: 1
DL&W: 1
EJ&E: 1
E.P. Hall Enterprises: 1
General Motors: 1
Georgia & Florida: 2
GN: 13 (4 LTP)
GM&O: 4 (3 LTP)
Halliburton: 1
Illini Railroad Club: 1
IC: 1 (1 LTP)
Jack Ferris: 6
James E. Strates Shows: 1
KCS/L&A: 1
Kentucky Railway Museum: 1
LV: 4
L&N: 4 (2 LTP)
Lucius Beebe: 1
Midwest Chapter NRHS: 1
Midwest Steel: 3
MILW: 2
MKT: 2 (2 LTP)
MP: 2
Monon: 1
Museum of Transportation: 1
NC&StL: 4
NYC/MC: 3
NH: 8 (8 LTP)
NKP: 2 (2 LTP)
N&W: 9 (1 LTP)
Northern Alberta RYS: 1
NP: 6
Ohio Power Company: 2
Old Dominion Chapter NRHS: 1
PRR: 35 (34 LTP)
P&LE: 2 (2 LTP)
Railcruise Company: 2
Royal American Shows: 4
Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products: 8
SOO: 1 (1 LTP)
SLSF: 1
SSW: 1
SAL: 6 (2 LTP)
SOU/CNO&TP/AGS/NO&NE/GS&F: 48 (30 LTP)
SP/NWP: 11 (5 LTP)
SP&S: 7 (1 LTP)
Tennessee Central RY: 1
Texas & Northern: 2
Tilp Industries: 1
UP: 3 (3 LTP)
US Government: 3
WAB: 9 (8 LTP)
WP: 2 (1 LTP)
WofA: 1 (1 LTP)
William W. Kratville-Autoliner Corporation: 1

Unknown: 7

Subtotals by Year of Sale:

1910: 1
1915: 1
1922: 1
1929: 1
1933: 1
1936: 1
1938: 2
1940: 3
1941: 21
1942: 6
1943: 1
1944: 8
1945: 24
1947: 21
1948: 121
1953: 17
1954: 5
1955: 5
1956: 3
1957: 1
1958: 2
1959: 2
1960: 5
1961: 5
1964: 2
1965: 10
1966: 1
1967: 10
1968: 2

Unknown: 17

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:48 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:28 pm
Posts: 54
Regarding the former N&W maintenance-of-way Pullman on display in Williamson, WV, I recently saw with the Street View feature on Google Maps it had been painted tuscan red. The last time I saw the car (and made photos) it was black, with no lettering. It did not appear presently to have any lettering, though the feature on Google Maps did not allow me a closer look. I do not have this car's history presently at hand but I assume it to be one of the PN class coach rebuilds, though that may be incorrect. This car is very close to the mainline in Williamson so it can be easily found for further analysis.
lois


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:41 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
Regarding the former N&W maintenance-of-way Pullman on display in Williamson, WV, I recently saw with the Street View feature on Google Maps it had been painted tuscan red... I do not have this car's history presently at hand but I assume it to be one of the PN class coach rebuilds, though that may be incorrect.


The car is a Plan 4061 14 Section sleeper rebuilt from a 12 Section - 1 Drawing Room sleeper, likely a Plan 2410 given the paired hallway windows. The N&W purchased five of these tourist sleepers in 1953 with none sold to either the NKP or WAB. Without further study it will be a bit hard to figure out which car this might be based on the bathroom hallway windows but it yet may be able to be further identified.

Here is the car in tuscan red paint...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3697779

If I were a betting man I would say that this is formerly Pullman T.C. 3070, a Plan 4061 14 Section rblt. from Plan 2410F 12 Section - 1 Drawing Room Oscawana. The reason I say this is because of the high windows (the term used by Pullman when referring to the shallow windows placed over sinks in some sleeper cars) in the bathroom areas where the sink was is offset to the right instead of centered between the single window to the left and the first full window to the right on both sides. Examination of known Plan 2410 sleeper photos shows this only occurred with the Plan 2410F sleepers, with the others having this window centered.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:27 pm 
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lady611 wrote:
Regarding the former N&W maintenance-of-way Pullman on display in Williamson, WV, I recently saw with the Street View feature on Google Maps it had been painted tuscan red. I do not have this car's history presently at hand but I assume it to be one of the PN class coach rebuilds, though that may be incorrect.

Lois


jmlaboda wrote:
The car is a Plan 4061 14 Section sleeper rebuilt from a 12 Section-1 Drawing Room sleeper, likely a Plan 2410 given the paired hallway windows. The N&W purchased five of these tourist sleepers in 1953 with none sold to either the NKP or WAB. If I were a betting man I would say that this is formerly Pullman T.C. 3070, rblt. from Plan 2410F Oscawana.

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Thanks, Lois and Jerry, for the info on Oscawana!

301. Oscawana (Lot #4614, Plan #4061, 1921/38, 14S)--Tourist #3070 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to N&W (1953) to display, Williamson, WV--does anyone know what number it carried while in MofW service, and when it was moved to Williamson for display??

Source:

1. Information from Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database at: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
301. Oscawana (Lot #4614, Plan #4061, 1921/38, 14S)--Tourist #3070 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to N&W (1953) to display, Williamson, WV--does anyone know what number it carried while in MofW service, and when it was moved to Williamson for display??


That would be N&W 521409...
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2173725

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:10 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 455
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
Rainier Rails wrote:
Thanks, ETA, for the info on the ex-NP car in Yakima!

The fact that the car is a solarium lounge narrows the search considerably:

NP only acquired three cars with a solarium:

Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975X, 1930, 3C-2DR-buf-sol-lng-obs)--sold to NP (1948) and leased to Pullman

Colonial (Lot #6385, Plan #4002B, 1930, 1DR-buf-plr [28 seat]-sol-lng)--sold to NP (1945)

Columbian (Lot #6385, Plan #4002B, 1930, 1DR-buf-plr [28 seat]-sol-lng)--sold to NP (1945)


Well, lets see if this helps at all. These two pictures are an overview of the heavyweights in the restaurant.


Attachments:
File comment: View of all three cars from the rear of the restaurant. The Cascade Pass in the foreground.
IMG_0500.JPG
IMG_0500.JPG [ 147.81 KiB | Viewed 5590 times ]
File comment: This is the front view of the restaurant.
IMG_0491.JPG
IMG_0491.JPG [ 198.12 KiB | Viewed 5590 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:15 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 455
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
Next up we have a few of the Obs car from behind the restaurant facade. I'm guessing either the Colonial or Columbian.


Attachments:
File comment: An interior shot through the locked end door.
IMG_0494.JPG
IMG_0494.JPG [ 208.54 KiB | Viewed 5586 times ]
File comment: The north side of the obs car.
IMG_0488.JPG
IMG_0488.JPG [ 173.82 KiB | Viewed 5586 times ]
File comment: The south side of the obs car.
IMG_0487-001.JPG
IMG_0487-001.JPG [ 234.04 KiB | Viewed 5586 times ]


Last edited by etalcos on Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:23 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 455
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
A few more.


Attachments:
File comment: One of the two day care cars.
IMG_0498.JPG
IMG_0498.JPG [ 179.44 KiB | Viewed 5582 times ]
File comment: The interior of the Cascade Pass.
IMG_0492.JPG
IMG_0492.JPG [ 155.24 KiB | Viewed 5582 times ]
File comment: The middle car, the Douglas Fir.
IMG_0489.JPG
IMG_0489.JPG [ 193.11 KiB | Viewed 5582 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, ETA, for posting the Yakima photos!

Comparing the hallway-side window arrangement of the ex-NP solarium (photo #4) in Yakima with that of the Strates Shows Palm Lane (line item #89), I am fairly certain that the Yakima Car is indeed the Palm Point.

86. Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975X, 1930, 3C-2DR-buf-sol-lng-obs)--sold to NP (1948) to Track 29 (Yakima, WA)--likely scrapped Fall 2013 with ex-UP 12-1 Pelham (line item #83) and ex-UP 10-1-1 Douglas Fir (line item #78)

Comparison photo: Palm Lane at the NY State Fairgrounds: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=220731 (Scott Schroeder photo)

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