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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:30 am 
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Additional Info:

As posted on page #2 of the "Business Cars" thread from January 2002: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2608

175. National Park (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-club-lng-barber)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #9 (1945) renumbered to #8 (when??) renumbered to #5 (when??) to NS #8 Tennessee sold in 2000 to Donald Grant, currently for sale and stored at Gateway.

Source:

1. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:06 am 
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Additional Info:

Back on page #3 of this thread, I posted a link to a thread from October 2004 started by Jason Midyette regarding the histories of 4 heavyweights privately owned in Colorado: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11298

The 4 cars were:

2. Centwell (Lot #6283, Plan #3979A, 1929, 8S-1DR-2C)--sold to AT&SF (1948) to MofW #194289 (1960??)

10. Columbia College (Lot #4648, Plan #4042, 1922/34, 10S-2DB-1C, ex-Cape Fear)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW (1960??) to SCL to SBD #765374

44. McKinneysburg (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965)

65. Canonbury Tower (Lot #4846, Plan #4090, 1925/39, 8S-1DR-3DB, ex-Point Brown)--sold to SOU #2512 (1948)

Through further research, it would appear that these cars are owned by John Birmingham-Boulder Scientific. Can anyone confirm/deny this? Thanks in advance!

Another thread posted by Jason Midyette in September 2001 mentions the Columbia College and 4 other cars, all acquired from CSX in 1991: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2111

The 4 other cars are:

SBD #990319

SBD #771061

L&N #42348/CSXT #972348

SBD #770210/CSXT #990210

I searched for photos of these cars, but did not find any, so I was unable to verify if any of these 4 cars appear to be ex-Pullman--does anybody know the identities of these 4 cars? Thanks in advance!

Another Mystery Car:

341. In a thread from January 2002, ge13031 mentions a sleeper that had served as the office at Hartland Yard (W&LE): http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2602

ge13031 wrote:
Nov 2000 we were notified that WLE was scrapping their "office" at hartland yard. The office is an ancient sleeper that had been all over NKP and NW in different locations. The car sat on a piece of track off the main line and was surrounded by skirting. Removal of the skirting revealed all the running gear and a pair of six-wheel trucks. Hulchers moved the car 75 ft (sideways) and set it back on rail. The car was pushed into the yard and we checked and found the brakes working, with no leaks and the jounals half full of oil. WLE towed the car to Lake Junction, onto the L&WV with no problems. Plans are to convert the car to a food/beverage/buffet car for the tourist line. I have to thank WLE for being very cooperative and making the whole operation quick and simple.


Does anyone know the identity of this car? Thanks in advance.

Source:

1. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:50 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
175. National Park (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-club-lng-barber)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #9 (1945) renumbered to #8 (when??) renumbered to #5 (when??) to NS #8 Tennessee sold in 2000 to Donald Grant, currently for sale and stored at Gateway.


One thing you have to understand about Southern's business cars... they were fairly often renumbered because of who they were assigned to, as that individual advanced within the company or as people retired from various higher positions, and the National Park was no exception.

The following is from the Southern Railway business car assignments file from my Southern Modeler sight.

When the car National Park was rebuilt by the Southern and released from the Haynes company shop, Spartanburg, S.C., on 19 November 1946 the car was given the #9, with the car retaining its riveted sides. The car remained in this number until October 1970 when it was renumbered to #8. This car carried the #8 until it was retired. This car never carried the name Tennessee.

During the same month the car that had been carrying the #8 was outshopped on 19 July from the Chattanooga company shop. This car had all welded steel sides like some of the modernized coaches that were being rebuilt and it was this car that was renumbered to SOU #5, in October 1970, replacing the previous SOU #5.

The previous SOU #5, which had been built from Pullman car Santiago and outshopped from Haynes as Alabama Great Southern #6 on 27 December 1946 (with riveted sides) and renumbered to #5 (still AGS) on 6 JULY 1951. It carried the #5 until it was removed from service and rebuilt with all welded sides became #12 on 22 October 1970 (see a pattern here?). It is this car that became Norfolk Southern #8 Tennessee.

The previous car that carried SOU #12 had been released from the Haynes shop on 20 April 1950 with all welded sides and numbered SOU #15 (I have not yet found what this car was built from as all records I have access too does not say much about the car's origins.) and was renumbered to SOU #12 25 May 1953. This car became SOU #9 in October 1975.

I probably would do better doing a table that showed what cars became what and may try to do it soon to replace the file that I mentioned above (actually it could be that two files should be made, with links to diagrams for various cars and tracking the car numbers as they were renumbered).

Unlike many other roads Southern Railway had a specific interior floorplan that they used on all cars rebuilt after 1945 or so, making for a "family appearance" for most of the cars that were kept into the 70s. By and large the window pattern on both sides were the same while the side construction varied between being riveted sided cars and cars that were either built or rebuilt with welded sides. But there was one specific detail that all cars had that was as good as a finger print for each individual car and that was the vent pattern on the bedroom side of the car, which was not repeated at all on any of the cars. Each car had a specific pattern that helps to ID the various cars. Frisco's smaller business car fleet was the same way.

Sorry to be so long winded but wanted to get this written before I got distracted by other things. Hope it helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:52 pm 

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Location: Morganton, N.C.
As a follow-up of the Ontario Northland cars that were formerly Pullman parlor cars, in Maintenance of Way service I should mention one other car that the ONT has/had. ONT 1624 was also a former NP car, originally a Plan 2416 parlor - Drawing Room car.

If anyone knows anything about this car's history and can fill in the blanks I would appreciate it!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:06 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Bendena KS
Rainier Rails wrote:
Additional Info:

Back on page #3 of this thread, I posted a link to a thread from October 2004 started by Jason Midyette regarding the histories of 4 heavyweights privately owned in Colorado: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11298

The 4 cars were:

2. Centwell (Lot #6283, Plan #3979A, 1929, 8S-1DR-2C)--sold to AT&SF (1948) to MofW #194289 (1960??)

10. Columbia College (Lot #4648, Plan #4042, 1922/34, 10S-2DB-1C, ex-Cape Fear)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW (1960??) to SCL to SBD #765374

44. McKinneysburg (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965)

65. Canonbury Tower (Lot #4846, Plan #4090, 1925/39, 8S-1DR-3DB, ex-Point Brown)--sold to SOU #2512 (1948)

Through further research, it would appear that these cars are owned by John Birmingham-Boulder Scientific. Can anyone confirm/deny this? Thanks in advance!

Another thread posted by Jason Midyette in September 2001 mentions the Columbia College and 4 other cars, all acquired from CSX in 1991: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2111

The 4 other cars are:

SBD #990319

SBD #771061

L&N #42348/CSXT #972348

SBD #770210/CSXT #990210

I searched for photos of these cars, but did not find any, so I was unable to verify if any of these 4 cars appear to be ex-Pullman--does anybody know the identities of these 4 cars? Thanks in advance!

Another Mystery Car:

341. In a thread from January 2002, ge13031 mentions a sleeper that had served as the office at Hartland Yard (W&LE): http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2602

ge13031 wrote:
Nov 2000 we were notified that WLE was scrapping their "office" at hartland yard. The office is an ancient sleeper that had been all over NKP and NW in different locations. The car sat on a piece of track off the main line and was surrounded by skirting. Removal of the skirting revealed all the running gear and a pair of six-wheel trucks. Hulchers moved the car 75 ft (sideways) and set it back on rail. The car was pushed into the yard and we checked and found the brakes working, with no leaks and the jounals half full of oil. WLE towed the car to Lake Junction, onto the L&WV with no problems. Plans are to convert the car to a food/beverage/buffet car for the tourist line. I have to thank WLE for being very cooperative and making the whole operation quick and simple.


Does anyone know the identity of this car? Thanks in advance.

Source:

1. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.


The Centwell, Columbia College, McKinneysburg and Cannonbury Tower are owned by John Birmingham / Boulder Scientific Company. As far as I know, the Columbia College its on a siding adjacent to the BSC plant in Mead Colorado and the other three are stored at the Hudson Terminal Railroad in Hudson Colorado. (The HTR is also owned by Mr. Birmingham)

Of the other four cars, ex SBD 990313 is absolutely a Pullman car. Before I repainted it in 2005, "PULLMAN" was clearly visible on the letterboard. If I recall the car was a tourist sleeper, its interior was relatively intact. The other three had been heavily modified for work train service and I found no definitive clues to their heritage. Unfortunetly, I can not find any photos of the cars. I believe all four are now at the Hudson Terminal.

Jason Midyette


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:57 pm 
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Thanks, Jason, for the info on the Boulder Scientific cars!

342. SBD #990319

Thanks, Jerry, for the info on the NS #8 Tennessee!

Line item #175 will be changed to:

175. Santiago (Lot #4979, Plan #3967A, 1926, buf-lng)--sold to SOU (1945) converted to business car AGS #6 (1946) renumbered to #5 (1951) rebuilt to #12 (1970) to NS #8 Tennessee sold to Donald Grant (2000) for sale and stored at Gateway

Source:

1. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:18 am 
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Missed This One:

343. Melanie (Lot #3950, Plan #2416, 1912, 1DR-plr [26])--sold to NYC (1941) sold to CN and rebuilt to GTW coach #5316 (1941*) to IRM (when??)

*IRM lists the #5316 as being modernized in 1951.

IRM photo gallery for GTW #5316: http://www.irm.org/gallery/GTW5316

Thread from October 2002: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4092

Besides the #5316, other extant CN/GTW coaches converted from Pullmans that have been listed in this thread are:

203. Sumter (Lot #4222, Plan #2522A, 1913, 7C-2DR)--sold to CN and rebuilt to CN coach #5375 (1942) to Lake Superior RR Museum (1975) to Mid-Continent (1993)

250. Henrietta (Lot #4264, Plan #2416A, 1914, 1DR-plr [26])--sold to NYC (1941) sold to CN and rebuilt to GTW coach #5320 (1941) to Little Traverse Scenic to private owner as "Crooked Lake Express" in Crooked Lake/Petoskey, MI.

251. Delair (Lot #3862, Plan #2418, 1910, 1DR-plr [28])--sold to GTW and converted to coach #5330 (1941) to Little Traverse Scenic to private owner as "Crooked Lake Express" in Crooked Lake/Petoskey, MI.

252. Hollidaysburg (Lot #3862, Plan #2418, 1910, 1DR-plr [28])--sold to CN and converted to GTW coach #5327 (1941) to Lake Superior RR Museum (1975??) to private owner (museum member), still at LSRM.

Does anybody know of any additional extant CN/GTW coaches converted from Pullmans? Thanks in advance!

Source:

1. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:38 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
Does anybody know of any additional extant CN/GTW coaches converted from Pullmans? Thanks in advance!


Hmm... wonder who it might be that could help...

Image

CN bought a large number of various types of Pullman parlor cars and a couple sleepers as well with all being converted to coaches, but there is a bit of an interesting twist in regards to most of the cars acquired... while they are listed as going to Canadian National and then rebuilt to coaches, with a fairly large number being passed on to subsidiary Grand Trunk Western, some apparently were not purchased straight out by CN but rather were acquired by other roads and then purchased from them.

The conflict shows quite strongly in comparing Wayner Publications book entitled The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars and Tom Madden's Pullman Car Construction, with the CCR showing the cars being sold to other railroads (the most being acquired by the New York Central while the smallest was the Central of Georgia) while the book only listthe cars going directly to CN and being rebuilt as coaches. In the listings below I do not list what road first purchased these cars from Pullman since it would take way too much time and effort to do so. Instead I simply will list them by their Pullman name and the number they were given after rebuilding. You will not that there were a variety of cars acquired with different window pattern and floorplans but if you were to examine the cars their window patterns were nearly identical despite being built from different floorplans with all being nearly identical to the two mentioned above that are now lettered for "Crooked Lake Express".

A variety of parlor - Drawing Room car types were acquired by CN and were rebuilt into 62- and 66-seat coaches, GTW 5308 - 5322 being 62-seat while GTW 5323 - 5333 being 66-seat. The following breaks down each plan type, their name and the number they were given. This information is from a file that I compiled for my own reference that dealt with all Pullman cars that were rebuilt as coaches after being sold off by Pullman. It is worth noting that while all were rebuilt to coaches not all recieved arch roofs and sealed thermapane windows, such as GTW 5330 linked to below.

Eleven Plan 2416 26-seat parlor - Drawing Room cars were acquired and rebuilt as coaches...

CHAMITA to coach GTW 5312
COLETTA to coach GTW 5318
DAVIDA to coach GTW 5311
HENRIETTA to coach GTW 5320
ILMA to coach GTW 5315
MELANIE to coach GTW 5316
MILDRED to coach GTW 5319
ROBERTA to coach GTW 5314
STANFIELD to coach GTW 5313
THEOLINDA to coach GTW 5317
WILMINGTON to coach GTW 5310

Eleven Plan 2418 28-seat parlor - Drawing Room cars were acquired and rebuilt as coaches...
ABSECON to coach GTW 5308
BELSENA to coach GTW 5309
BOWIE to coach GTW 5323
CHESILHURST to coach GTW 5329
COWLEY to coach GTW 5324
DELAIR to coach GTW 5330
ELIZABETH to coach GTW 5325
GLEN LOCH to coach GTW 5326
HOLLIDAYSBURG to coach GTW 5327
POMEROY to coach GTW 5328
USELDA to coach GTW 5331

There were two Plan 2668 30-seat parlor - Drawing Room cars that were rebuilt by CN as coaches for the GTW...
ETHELWYN to coach GTW 5321
STRELSA to coach GTW 5322

One Plan 2410B 12 Section - 1 Drawing Room was rebuilt as a coach for the GTW...
RAMBO to coach GTW 5333

One Plan 2764A 30-seat parlor car was rebuilt as a coach for the GTW...
NAHANT to coach GTW 5332

I will have a more complete list of cars that CN rebuilt for their use in a little while...

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Thanks, Jerry, for all the info on the GTW coaches!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:52 pm 
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Back on pages #7 and #13 of this thread:

Rainier Rails wrote:
Another "where is it now?" car:

281. Mt. Thielsen (Lot #4998, Plan #3521A, 1926, 10S-lng-obs, L&N)--sold to L&N (1948) converted to business car #375 (1949?) to C&NW #401 (3rd) (1982) to #401 Chicago (1985) to UP (1995) to Fleming Company (1998)


Thread from January 2003: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4749

Dan Decker wrote:
The Webb Family/SKOL/K&O Railroad folks have among their fold a beautiful C&NW heavyweight business car named "Chicago". We see it here in Wichita, KS from time to time when they run excursions on the lines here.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:31 am 

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CNW 401 Chicago is now in Corpus Christi, Tx.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/b787823/11348387856

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:18 am 
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Thanks, Jerry, for the info and photo link!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:39 am 
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Here's an interesting car:

Thread from February 2003: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5109

This was among the MILW and SOO equipment privately owned in Rockford, IL, at least some of which ended up being moved to the Colfax RR Museum.

Two possibilities for how this car was modified:

As posted in that thread by Peter Nicholson:

Peter Nicholson wrote:
I have been in the car - it is a kitbashed Pullman converted to MofW service with a new end fabricated at Milwaukee Shops using the 1934-pattern streamlined coach design.


As posted in that thread by Thomas Manz:

Thomas Manz wrote:
This appears to be most of an old 10-1-(-) sleeping car, and a short piece of a lightweight, open-platform branch line combine. The combos were built at the Milwaukee shops (in Milwaukee) in the mid-1930s. This bizarre mating must have been done in the 50s/60s, when combines for mixed trains were no longer in demand.


Well, using the 10-1-x configuration noted, here's what Tom Madden's CCR database tells us:

The Milwaukee Road acquired at the 12/31/1948 Pullman divestiture a total of 14 sleepers of the 10S-1DR-1C configuration (all from Lot #6043, to Plan #3973C, and all painted "MILW Std."):

Arrowhead, Big Rock (later repainted in UP Armour Yellow), Calabar, Des Moines, Hartland (is the spelling actually Heartland?), Iron Mountain, Miles City, Mississippi, Nahma, Puget Sound, Tomah, Tomahawk, Wausau, and Minneiska.

Just for reference, there were a total of 30 10-1-1 sleepers built in Lot #6043, all originally for service on the Milwaukee Road; 14 of the other 16 cars were sold to: ACL (1), C&O (2), ERIE (5), NYC (4), and UP (2). The 2 remaining cars remained in Pullman ownership until listed as sold to scrap dealers in 1960 (Black Hawk to Henning & Co.) and 1962 (Bearmouth to Midwest Steel).

As for the 14 cars acquired by MILW, most did not last long in Pullman lease, with 12 withdrawn between January and April 1949. The 2 remaining cars, Big Rock and Des Moines, were also withdrawn at that time, but re-entered Pullman lease in April 1955, withdrawn again in May 1956, and the Big Rock was again in Pullman lease from September 1956 to September 1958.

Looking at these records, in trying to do reasonable conjecture as to what car ended up being converted for MofW, it would make sense that either of the 2 longer-lasting MILW-owned cars, Big Rock or Des Moines, was the car converted; however, I wouldn't rule out entirely that either one of the 2 cars remaining in Pullman ownership, the Black Hawk or Bearmouth, wasn't ultimately used by MILW for the conversion. I know of one other instance where a car from the MILW pool that remained in Pullman ownership is listed as sold to a scrap dealer and yet remained extant: the Plan #3521L Mt. Harvard, listed as sold to Midwest Steel in 1961, which is now at Mid-Continent (listed earlier in this thread as line item #97).

It should be noted that there were 2 additional 10-1-1 sleepers painted for MILW, but which were not acquired at the 12/31/1948 divestiture: Le Grand (to NYC) and Le Roi (to US RY Equipment Co. in 1956). Both from Lot #6300 to Plan #3973A.

What I don't have is more info on the disposition of Milwaukee's heavyweight cars, including sleepers, so pinning down the history of this car shall remain open ended. Can anyone figure out which car was converted? Jerry? Thanks in advance!

Also, was this car among the Rockville equipment acquired by Colfax, or was it ultimately scrapped? Can anyone provide info? Thanks in advance!

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any photos of the car in question. Thanks in advance!

Source:

1. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:47 pm 
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First off, a mystery car:

Thread from October 2002: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4140

Amtrak #16500, a former PRR "Betterment" sleeper, based at New Brunswick, NJ.

Photo taken by Jeff Lubchansky on August 27th, 1999: http://web.archive.org/web/20060828022713/http://www.jefflubchanskycpa.com/AMT16500NBRUNSWICK-AUG27-99DIGI4.jpg

Does anybody know the identity of this car, and if this car is still extant? Thanks in advance!

Second, another private collection:

Thread from March 2003: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5336

As posted by Boyd Owens on page #2:

Boyd Owens wrote:
Prairie Du Chein, WI - MILW cabooses (1 wood, many steel), CB&Q coaches, CB&Q observation car, and various ex-BN MOW cars at various locations around town, all uncared for and rusting/rotting away. (All owned by same person.)


Boyd Owens wrote:
Just thought I'd ad a little more info on Prairie Du Chein for those who've never heard of the situation there. The owner of the railroad cars mentioned is a "collector" of many things. His "collection" includes the railroad equipment, a railroad hotel, a railroad depot, a turntable, many church steeples, a log cabin, and a Mississippi river towboat, to name just some of what he has.


Boyd Owens wrote:
It's all still there (as of last Dec, anyway). Unfortunately I haven't yet located my photos of it to scan yet. Don't know any car numbers either unfortunately. The owner is Mr. Blair Dillman.


Does anybody know if any of the cars in Prairie Du Chien are former Pullmans? Thanks in advance!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:58 pm 
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From the same thread from March 2003: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5336

Posted by Fred Ash on page #2:

Fred Ash wrote:
There is a de-trucked, steel-sheathed wooden sleeper obs (ex "Constellation" or "Constitution")used as a summer home overlooking the Des Plaines River southwest of Chicago. It has the best wood-paneled interior of any car I've seen and all of the original fittings- including the canvas that pulls across the berths to keep cinders off the linen.


Does anybody have more info on this car? Pullman or other builder? Thanks in advance!

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