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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:38 am 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
Additional Info:

Back on page #3 of this thread, I posted a link to a thread from October 2004 started by Jason Midyette regarding the histories of 4 heavyweights privately owned in Colorado: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11298

The 4 cars were:

2. Centwell (Lot #6283, Plan #3979A, 1929, 8S-1DR-2C)--sold to AT&SF (1948) to MofW #194289 (1960??)

10. Columbia College (Lot #4648, Plan #4042, 1922/34, 10S-2DB-1C, ex-Cape Fear)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW (1960??) to SCL to SBD #765374

44. McKinneysburg (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Jack Ferris (1965)

65. Canonbury Tower (Lot #4846, Plan #4090, 1925/39, 8S-1DR-3DB, ex-Point Brown)--sold to SOU #2512 (1948)

Through further research, it would appear that these cars are owned by John Birmingham-Boulder Scientific. Can anyone confirm/deny this? Thanks in advance!

Another thread posted by Jason Midyette in September 2001 mentions the Columbia College and 4 other cars, all acquired from CSX in 1991: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2111

The 4 other cars are:

SBD #990319

SBD #771061

L&N #42348/CSXT #972348

SBD #770210/CSXT #990210

I searched for photos of these cars, but did not find any, so I was unable to verify if any of these 4 cars appear to be ex-Pullman--does anybody know the identities of these 4 cars? Thanks in advance!
Jason Midyette wrote:
The Centwell, Columbia College, McKinneysburg and Cannonbury Tower are owned by John Birmingham / Boulder Scientific Company. As far as I know, the Columbia College its on a siding adjacent to the BSC plant in Mead Colorado and the other three are stored at the Hudson Terminal Railroad in Hudson Colorado. (The HTR is also owned by Mr. Birmingham)

Of the other four cars, ex SBD 990313 is absolutely a Pullman car. Before I repainted it in 2005, "PULLMAN" was clearly visible on the letterboard. If I recall the car was a tourist sleeper, its interior was relatively intact. The other three had been heavily modified for work train service and I found no definitive clues to their heritage. Unfortunetly, I can not find any photos of the cars. I believe all four are now at the Hudson Terminal.


I found another thread from January 2011 when 7 of John Birmingham's cars (with Boulder Scientific CLPX reporting marks) were moved from Mead to Hudson, CO: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30767

The above thread linked to another thread posted on Railroad Forums: http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?34906-BNSF-1933-South-Heavyweight-Passenger-Cars!&p=284903#post284903

This thread in turn linked to a video of the move posted on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmcPsxYaBnc

The CLPX cars appear at about 1:40 into the video.

The cars were:

Ex-AT&SF short business car #428

65. Canonbury Tower (Lot #4846, Plan #4090, 1925/39, 8S-1DR-3DB, ex-Point Brown)--sold to SOU #2512

Lightweight coach

Heavyweight coach #144

Heavyweight diner or lounge #106

365. Heavyweight #990210 (ex-CSX #990210, exx-SBD #770210)--this also looks to be a former sleeper--anyone want to take a guess at the identity of this one?

342. Heavyweight sleeper #990319 (ex-SBD #990319)--anyone want to take a guess at the identity of this one?

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Last edited by Rainier Rails on Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:33 am 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
342. Heavyweight sleeper #990319 (ex-SBD #990319)--anyone want to take a guess at the identity of this one?


Following the SBD/CSX MofW renumbering logic, the original MofW number would have been #70319, which according to Wayner, is the:

342. Charleston (Lot #3866, Plan #2410, 1911/42, 12S-1DR, C&O)--Tourist #2016--sold to SAL as MofW #70319 (1947) to SCL #770319 to SBD #990319 to CSX sold to John Birmingham-Boulder Scientific as CLPX #990319 (1991)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Last edited by Rainier Rails on Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:46 am 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
365. Heavyweight #990210 (ex-CSX #990210, exx-SBD #770210)--this also looks to be a former sleeper--anyone want to take a guess at the identity of this one?


Following the SBD/CSX MofW renumbering logic, the original MofW number would have been #70210, which according to Wayner, is the:

365. North Berne (Lot #4707, Plan #2585E, 1923, 10S-1DR-2C, PRR)--sold to SAL #1259 (1948) to MofW #70210 (1958) to SCL #770210 to SBD #990210 to CSX #990210 sold to John Birmingham-Boulder Scientific as CLPX #990210 (1991)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:23 pm 
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Additional Survivors:

366. Manhattan (Lot #4422, Plan #2502B, 1916, private car)--sold to ACL #308 (1st) (1944) renumbered to #309 (when??) to SCL #309 to SBD #309 sold to Gulf & Ohio (when??) and named Tennessee (#800253)

I wondered what the history of this car was:

367. Newport (Lot #4422, Plan #2502B, 1916, private car, ex-Puretest*)--sold to NP #4 (1941) was this car later renamed the Gallatin River?** sold to Andy's Diner in Seattle (when??) restaurant sold and renamed the Orient Express

*Renamed Puretest from March to December 1936 for use on the Rexall Train.

**The NP rostered several heavyweight business cars with River-series names:

1. The Jefferson River was ex-Pullman Boston, now stored in Logan, Ohio (line item #216).

2. The Madison River (#2) was ex-observation lounge #1716 (Pullman, 1926, converted 1943), now on the Lake Whatcom Railway (FOBNR lists the sale date as 1970).

3. The Green River (#1 [4th]) was formerly the Yellowstone (2nd) (Pullman, 1924).

4. The Gallatin River (#4). FOBNR lists that both the Green River and the Gallatin River were scrapped. Can anyone confirm that the #4 was named the Gallatin River?? Thanks in advance!

The Manhattan and the Newport have been the subject of a pair of earlier threads:

1. From March 2007: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22527

2. From September 2011: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32020

Photos of the Manhattan:

1. In Knoxville, on June 14th, 1989: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1487991 (Marty Bernard photo)

2. In Rural Hall, NC, on January 3rd, 2004: http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/6/5/8065.1075656300.jpg (Lenny Dunlap photo) (click once to enlarge)

3. In Savannah, on February 27th, 2010: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4045/4393873998_df836f1b03_o.jpg (Jim Phillips photo)

4. In Knoxville, on July 15th, 2010: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2145040 (John Owens photo)

5. In Knoxville, on June 24th, 2012: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3081775 (David H photo)

Photos of the Newport:

1. As NP Gallatin River in St. Paul, in September 1969: http://www.nprha.org/ToppenishCaron/JC10098.jpg (NPRHA/Joe Caron photo collection)

The five below photos are of the Newport as part of the restaurant in Seattle:

2. August 26th, 2007: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alachance/1343426737/sizes/l (Andrew Lachance photo)

3. April 20th, 2008: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3013/2469102565_067d92f1d6_o.jpg (Jasperdo photo) (click once to enlarge)

4. July 15th, 2008: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Seattle_-_Andy%27s_Diner_02.jpg/1280px-Seattle_-_Andy%27s_Diner_02.jpg (Joe Mabel photo) (click once to enlarge)

5. July 15th, 2008: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Seattle_-_Andy%27s_Diner_03.jpg/1280px-Seattle_-_Andy%27s_Diner_03.jpg (Joe Mabel photo)

6. May 30th, 2011: https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2485/5783248998_01a23189d5_o.jpg (Bruce Dene photo)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Friends of the Burlington Northern website:

___3a. Main page: http://fobnr.org/

___3b. Passenger car index page: http://fobnr.org/bncarlist/passenger/bnpassmain.htm

___3c. Business car index page: http://fobnr.org/bncarlist/passenger/pbnbuscar.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Is there any status change regarding "Embassy" aka "City of Wabash" aka "Chief Keokuck" aka "Louisiana," since January 2014 when an earlier post on this thread located it in New Orleans (having been put into auction several years ago by the New Orleans Public Belt)?

This 1992 photo by Jeff Dobek shows it as "Chief Keokuck" of the original Keokuk Junction Railway, at the Keokuk Union Depot.


Attachments:
chief_keokuck_1992.jpg
chief_keokuck_1992.jpg [ 47.26 KiB | Viewed 2676 times ]

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Last edited by rlsteam on Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Richard--

The last I knew all 3 of NOPB's ex-WAB City-series cars were in storage. Haven't heard anything more than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
367. Newport (Lot #4422, Plan #2502B, 1916, private car, ex-Puretest*)--sold to NP #4 (1941) was this car later renamed the Gallatin River?** sold to Andy's Diner in Seattle (when??) restaurant sold and renamed the Orient Express


Pictures of the Newport:

Taken today, October 4th.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3992608

Image

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3992622

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:06 am 
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Three More Survivors:

368. Pampanga (Lot #4503, Plan #2410F, 1917/42, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #1391--sold to SP&S and rebuilt to RPO-baggage #46 (1947) to BN (MofW??) donated to Bend, OR for planned museum (when??) moved to McCloud, CA and stored (when??)

369. Sakana (Lot #4319, Plan #2410B, 1915/42, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #1431--sold to SP&S and rebuilt to postal storage #57 (2nd) (1947) to BN (MofW??) donated to Bend, OR for planned museum (when??) moved to McCloud, CA and stored (when??)

370. Story (Lot #4624, Plan #2411C, 1921/42, 12S-1DR-1C, NYC)--Tourist #1061--sold to SP&S and rebuilt to baggage-express #65 (2nd) (1947) sold to Minnesota Fair Museum (when??)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. SP&S RHS website:

___3a. Main page: http://www.spshs.org/index.html

___3b. Resources index page: http://www.spshs.org/res/index.html

___3c. Surviving equipment page: http://www.spshs.org/res/survivors.html

___3d. Page for SP&S #46 and #57 in McCloud, CA: http://www.spshs.org/res/mccloud.html

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:07 am 
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Mystery Car:

371. Sold to SOU and converted to business car, to private ownership in Lamy, NM, and named Hamilton--does anybody know the identity of this car? Thanks in advance!

There is a sign with the car's history, but I haven't located any photos showing the sign.

According to Chris Guenzler's website (http://www.trainweb.org/chris/900,000.html), the history is:

Chris Guenzler wrote:
The Hamilton is an ex New York Central 20th Century Limited that the NYC sold to the Southern Railway where it was converted to business car service. At the time of the Southern Railway and Norfolk Western merger it was sold to a private owner.


Pictures:

November 25th, 2005: http://www.trainweb.org/chris/photos/lmy24.jpg (Chris Guenzler photo)

November 25th, 2005: http://www.trainweb.org/chris/photos/lmy25.jpg (Chris Guenzler photo)

December 6th, 2007: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3064/2281733052_41d429e0be_o.jpg (LHOON photo) (click once to enlarge)

January 16th, 2010: http://www.albuquerquerealestatebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/01-16-2010-015.jpg (Rich Cederberg photo) (click once to enlarge)

May 26th, 2011: http://el-camino-real.smugmug.com/Trains/Railroads/i-f6jjX8N/1/S/Lamy,%20NM%20Hamilton%20Passenger%20Car-S.jpg (El Camino Real photo)

October 19th, 2012: http://trainweb.org/amtrakpix/travelogues/101112A/547-1107.jpg (Geno Dailey photo)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:37 am 
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Additional photo of the car in Lamy, NM, which is apparently PPCX #700100:

January 29th, 2005: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=471534 (Nathan D. Holmes photo)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
According to Tom Madden's Pullman Car Construction Records HAMILTON was not sold to the NYC but rather Southern Pacific, and this after the car was converted to a tourist car. The car was sold to the Espee in November of 1953.

Additionally, the book, The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars, states that the car was converted to Maintenance of Way service once it was acquired.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Jerry--

I did look through the CCR database, and I concluded that even though Hamilton may be the name currently on the car, I don't think this is the car sold to SP. As stated on Chris Guenzler's website, this is a former SOU business car, and the photographic evidence would seem to back that up. So, the question is, are there any SOU business cars that remain unaccounted for, and does anybody know which one it is?

Here's the photo taken by Nathan D. Holmes: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=471534

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
I think you mis-understand what I was saying... I am saying that this is NOT the Pullman car HAMILTON.

No doubt it is a former Southern business car, just wish that there was a good shot of the other side so the car could be identified (while the wall pattern was pretty much a standard design the roof vents on the aisle side of the car is as distinctive as a finger print... no two cars ever had the same vent pattern, making IDing a car rather simple... if you have access to a large number of shots of various business cars).

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:51 pm 
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Oops!

Yes, unfortunately, I have been unable to locate any close-up photos of the other side...hopefully one will turn up!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:48 pm 
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Another Survivor:

As discussed in these two threads: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33661 and http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37233

372. Louisa Alcott (Lot #6032, Plan #3416A, 1927, 1DR-plr [28], RDG)--sold to PM (12/31/1945) converted to C&O instruction car #603 (when??*) sold to private ownership** (when??) acquired by Robert Snow for the Las Vegas location of Church Street Station, name Louisa Alcott reapplied*** (1985) Snow sold the Las Vegas location to the Boyd Gaming Corporation, which was renamed Main Street Station (1987)

*Wayner lists the conversion as taking place after the C&O-PM merger, no exact date is given.

**In the first post of the first linked thread, Dean Levin mentions that:

PLATFORMCAR wrote:
Termite7 ( T7 ) indicated this car was in Knoxville during the World's Fair as extra hotel / lodging space.. Who owned it then, who restored it, and I assume it was bought by Robert Snow, like the other cars, and made it to Vegas to be brought inside for the restaurant...


So does anybody know who owned the Louisa Alcott after C&O and before Robert Snow? Thanks in advance!

***In addition to the ownership question, does anybody know if the name Louisa Alcott was reapplied during private ownership or after acquisition by Robert Snow? Also, like UP dome lounge #9000 which is now at the Las Vegas location, was the Louisa Alcott formerly at the Orlando location, or was it acquired in c. 1985 specifically for the then-new Las Vegas location? Thanks in advance!

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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