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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:39 pm 
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After talking with Jerry, I've assigned a line item number to the simulator support car DAFX #31 in Ogden:

392. DAFX #31, simulator support car, owned by Utah State RR Museum--full history unknown

A Question:

Way back on page #2, Newriver400 said:

On Friday, October 1st, 2010, Newriver400 wrote:
TVRM's collection

Others have come and gone - Alabama College (scrapped)


Even though it's a scrapped car, I'm assigning it a line item number just for clarity:

393. Alabama College (Lot #3800, Plan #4042A, 1910/35, 10S-2DB-1C, SOU, ex-Plan #2411B Port Byron, [20th Century Limited])--sold to AGS #4001 (1948) to TVRM (when??) and later scrapped (when??)

Does anybody know when the Alabama College was acquired or when it was scrapped? Thanks in advance!

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:48 pm 
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A Mystery Car:

All the way back on pages #2, #3, #14, #16, #17, and #23:

On Thursday, September 30th, 2010, Afboone wrote:
Reading And Northern "The Lehigh Gorge", Heavyweight 1927 Pullman Sleeper car.
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
Unknown Histories:

72. Lehigh Gorge (1927)--RBMN #2
On Monday, January 27th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
A Correction:

Subtotals by Year of Construction:

1927: 21 cars, not 20, as I forgot to include RBMN #2 Hickory Run (formerly named Lehigh Gorge), which is line item no. 72 back on page #3. Does anybody know the identity/history of this car?? I forgot to include it in the "Mystery Cars" post above.
On Monday, January 27th, 2014, jmlaboda wrote:
These photo sshows that the car has Ice AC which makes it one of only four cars that were acquired by PRR (PRR preferring Ice AC over the other types)...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1154686
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3667211

All four of these cars lasted until the mid-60s in lease to Pullman. Names and numbers as well as the dates when they were withdrawn from Pullman lease were PRR 8575 Craigie House (3/65), PRR 8576 Emlen House (4/64), PRR 8577 Octagon House (4/67) and PRR 8578 Royall House (3/65).

There were 13 cars total built between the Plans 3997 and 3997a and according to the Pullman HW Sleeper book all went to scrap, which apparently is not true since one still remains with us.
On Saturday, April 5th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
Also mentioned in the linked thread is that Al Coleman also owned a heavyweight sleeper:

Night Trail (Lot #6304, Plan #3980B, 1929, 14SB)--sold to NYNH&H (1948)

Does anyone know the current whereabouts of this car??

Azalea thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21254
On Sunday, April 13th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
Question:

Did Jack Ferris own any other cars in addition to the nine I have listed?
On Thursday, September 18th, 2014, Brian Norden wrote:
The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (published by The Railway Equipment and Publication Co.) has the following cars listed in the "Privately Owner Passenger Trains Cars" section under Private Railroad Cars, Inc (with Mr John W. Ferris as President):
Capital Heights - private car
Travel Club - 8sec-buffet-solarium obs
Clover Colony - 8 sec-5 DBR

The 1965 issue added these cars:
Night Star and Night Trail - 14 SBR
Nansemond County - 10 sec-solarium=lounge (not listed in following years)
On Friday, September 19th, 2014, Rainier Rails wrote:
357. Night Trail (Lot #6304, Plan #3980B, 1929, 14SB)--sold to NYNH&H #758 (1948) sold to Jack Ferris (when??) to Al Coleman--does anybody know the current status/location of this car??


RBMN #2 Lehigh Gorge (1st)/Hickory Run had previously been identified as a Plan #3997 13DB sleeper. However, today when I was looking through RR Picture Archives, on the front page in the "New Albums" section I saw an album titled "Riding an old Pullman":

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archivethumbs.aspx?id=107823

This album consists of photos taken today, February 14th, of an RBMN excursion, with the photographer, Bob Kise, riding in RBMN #2. Bob states that the #2 is the Night Trail. Wanting to confirm that the #2 is indeed 14 single bedrooms, not 13 double bedrooms, I checked the window pattern of the #2 (on both sides) with the floorplan of the Plan #3980 Night-series 14SB cars featured in Bill Kratville's "Passenger Car Catalog" (1968). The windows of #2 do indeed match the Plan #3980 floorplan, so henceforth:

72. Night Trail (Lot #6304, Plan #3980B, 1929, 14SB)--sold to NYNH&H #758 (1948) sold to Jack Ferris-Private RR Cars, Inc. (1955*) sold to Al Coleman (when??) sold to RBMN #2 and renamed Lehigh Gorge (1st) (when??) renamed Hickory Creek** (when??)

*The Night Trail was withdrawn from Pullman lease in 1955, I don't know if Jack Ferris acquired the car at that time or at a later date.

**The #2 was renamed from Lehigh Gorge to Hickory Creek so that the name Lehigh Gorge could be applied to RBMN #4, the ex-MILW Super Dome.

Also, line item #357, which was previously assigned to the Night Trail, is now void.

Sources:

1. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

2. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Looking again at the album I linked to above, the following photo states that RBMN acquired the Night Trail in 1998:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4116875

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:39 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 67
A few years back I did some exploring at the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville, Indiana and came across a pair of PRR work train Pullmans in PRR yellow stored on a spur that lead to a power plant. I did a little research back then and came up with PRR 8898 "Paul Jones" and PRR 7010 "Poor Richards club"

Ryan Kertis


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 4996
nictd1000 wrote:
A few years back I did some exploring at the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville, Indiana and came across a pair of PRR work train Pullmans in PRR yellow stored on a spur that lead to a power plant. I did a little research back then and came up with PRR 8898 "Paul Jones" and PRR 7010 "Poor Richards club"

Ryan Kertis


Ryan -

Thanks for note. Wonder if ITM still owns the cars and what their plans are for them.


Les


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:24 pm 
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Thanks, Ryan, for the info!

394. Paul Jones (Lot #4894, Plan #3410A, 1925, 12S-1DR)--sold to PRR #8898 (1948) to MofW #492896 (1962) sold to Indiana Transportation Museum (Noblesville) (when??)

395. Poor Richard Club (Lot #6361, Plan #3992H, 1930, plr [13]-buf-kitchen-dinette-lng [14])--sold to PRR #7010 (1945) to MofW #27001 (1956) sold to Indiana Transportation Museum (Noblesville) (when??)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. D. Garrett Spear's roster of PRR heavyweight sleepers and parlors: http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_HW_Pass_Title.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:40 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Has it been confirmed that these cars did belong to ITMZ? They've not showed up in pix posted to the web. Its fair to say that the ITMZ is not one of the best photographed museums... I wonder, irregardless of who owns them, if they are even still around.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 67
The pair, I recall, were outside of the museum grounds, stored on the power plant spur in the woods. There was also a Budd..RPO.. I believe. Possibly a couple freight cars as well. I was there doing restoration work on a Monon caboose and the museum curator showed me the other cars on a break.

http://nictd1000.rrpicturearchives.net/ ... ?id=256839

http://nictd1000.rrpicturearchives.net/ ... ?id=865292

Ryan


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:04 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Mystery Cars:

396. MILW baggage-express #2051 is owned by the Milwaukee Road Heritage Center in Montevideo, MN. Does anybody know what sleeper the #2051 was converted from? Thanks in advance!

Pictures:

As MofW #958001 in UP Armour Yellow, hallway side: http://www.montevideomrhc.org/MountRushmoreandExpress/slides/Baggage%202.JPG

As MofW #958001 in UP Armour Yellow, bedroom side: http://www.montevideomrhc.org/MountRushmoreandExpress/slides/Baggage%2002.JPG

Returned to MILW Maroon & Orange, June 6th, 2009 (hallway side): http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1631823 (Matt Petersen photo)

397. & 398. 2 sleepers converted to US Army hospital ward cars, then stored at the Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center, 1 of which was sold to Jasper, IN, for the Spirit of Jasper dinner train as lounge #300. The 2 other cars sold to Jasper were a 1947 hospital built by AC&F and MILW 40 seat chair #659 (ex-#549). Besides the 3 cars sold to Jasper, there were 2 additional MILW 40 seat chairs (#536/#653 and #548/#658) and 2 other unidentified heavyweights, 1 of which appears to be a 2nd ex-sleeper hospital ward car. These cars were discussed on page #12 of the "Best Rumors/Legends" thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24304&start=165

Does anybody know if the 3rd heavyweight is also an ex-sleeper hospital ward car? Also, any pictures of either the 2nd or 3rd cars? Thanks in advance!

In the first quote (Justin Nelson), note the 2nd ward car parked behind the 2 damaged MILW chairs.

skytop45 wrote:
One time the rumor mill turned up a nugget about a couple ex-Milwaukee coaches sitting out on the back 40 of a military base after sustaining wreck damage in a run-away. After some digging, that rumor turned out to be fact.

Image
p51 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what military base is this at?
Les Beckman wrote:
Crane Naval in Indiana. Note the heavyweight car. Some of these undamaged cars ended up in Jasper, Indiana.
skytop45 wrote:
As noted by Les, these are at the Naval Surface Warfare Center near Crane, Indiana. The base had 3 Milwaukee coaches and a number of heavy weight cars. At one point there was a run-away wreck which damaged two of the three Milwaukee cars (the third car went to Jasper for the dinner train). One of the heavy weight cars ended up in the woods, and a heavyweight mortuary car still sits with the Milwaukee coaches. Two additional heavyweight cars ended up going to Jasper as well.

The cars sit on a wye on the back 40 of the base.


Note that Justin calls the heavyweight parked with the 2 MILW chairs a "mortuary car". In the caption for the following photograph, Earl Leatherberry gives a similar name for the car which was sold to Jasper:

Earl C. Leatherberry wrote:
Spirit of Jasper car #300, named the Lounge Car, is a former Department of Defense car that was bought as surplus property to be used on an excursion train out of Jasper, Indiana. The car, along with two others, was reburbished in 2008-09 by local individuals and businesses for use on the three car Spirit of Jasper excursion train. The car was built in 1917 by Pullman as a "coffin car" to transport military dead to hometowns and cities across the United States. Before being sold, the car was stored at the U. S. Navy Surface Warfare Center, Crane, Inidana. Before becoming surplus property, the car most likely was in service to the U. S. Army.


Spirit of Jasper #300, November 29th, 2009: https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2699/4224098276_999c901ca3_o.jpg (click once to enlarge)

Another photo of the #300, taken by Brian Wiggins on April 3rd, 2010: http://abpr.railfan.net/april10/04-07-10/SOJ_300_Jasper_IN_03_Apr_2010.jpg

Source:

Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
Note that Justin calls the heavyweight parked with the 2 MILW chairs a "mortuary car".


As conflicts started to wind down most of the rebuilt heavyweight cars were reassigned to be used as mortuary cars, having their windows covered and used to move caskets with deceased military personnel. Most of the interior remained intact with the caskets being set on the beds of the cars.

A good website that talks some about these cars and that has a few pictures showing these older cars in this service is the BROOKLYN ARMY TERMINAL & BUSH TERMINAL website...

http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/milrr/batbtww2repat.html

Trains operated to various locations around the U.S. with these cars being used to disperse the dead reasonably close to their homes so that funeral parlors could go and pick them up and take them to their final resting place. I have a bit more info that I can share but it will take me a little while before my eyes will allow me to go looking for it. Will follow this up as quickly as I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:04 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:23 am
Posts: 128
Location: willow grove pa
i found a link with a 61 page PDF presentation regarding the Mortuary cars used in the return of service members. I does list the Pullman car numbers / names plus confiuration information internal an external.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fxa.yimg.com%2Fkq%2Fgroups%2F16922779%2F473546577%2Fname%2FMortuary_Trains_Jan_13_FL.pdf&ei=fzPuVM2KCYWVNsThgNAG&usg=AFQjCNHGIzC-b_c5ayKv2Uox_0EcmlrsPg


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
It is fair to say that the bulk of the heavyweight cars that were converted to hospital cars and later converted to mortuary service were heavyweight Pullman parlor and sleeper cars but there were also a group of cars, numbered 89024 - 89032, that were converted Northern Pacific heavyweight lounge observation cars, and the former Nevada Northern business car Cyprus II was also converted, to car #89033.

More reading than you likely will ever want to read on the Pullman cars converted for Mortuary service and the handling of the deceased can be found at the link below. Starting on page 48 it mentions some of the car types that were converted by Pullman Plan and type, with the pages that follow listing the known cars that were converted, some still needing their Army numbers...

Also covered is the kitbashing of a Walthers HO scale Plan 3416 parlor into a hospital car.

http://ebookbrowsee.net/mortuary-trains-jan-13-fl-pdf-d481911558

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
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Rainier Rails wrote:
96. Old Elm Club (Lot #4484, Plan #4026C, 1917/32, 10S-buf-lng, ex-Miloma)--retained (12/31/1948)-- sold to MILW and converted to business car Indiana (1955) to R. Dringenburg-Midland RY Historical Association (Baldwin City, KS) recently listed for sale on Ozark Mountain Railcar


This is old news, but I just noticed where the Indiana went after it disappeared from the Ozark Mountain Railcar site. It was put on display in a park in Moberly, MO, I think in 2011.

From what I can see, Moberly was on the MKT and Wabash RR's.

Interior pics of Indiana here:
http://trainweb.org/chris/lapltt.html

Craning Indiana onto the display track (Moberly Missouri Historic Preservation Commission).
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 684&type=3


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:55 pm 
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Thanks, RIL, for the info!

Here's another shot of the Indiana, taken on July 27th, 2012, by Rick Morgan: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3122719. He states that the Indiana was placed on display in June 2011 where the Wabash depot was formerly located. Interestingly, the Indiana is lettered as GTLX #100. GTLX is the reporting mark for Great Lakes Rail Car, which also owns 3 lightweight cars from the Mid-America fleet:

#800180 City of Angels (2nd), 6DB sleeper-22 seat buffet lounge, ex-Philip Sheridan/IFE Leasing, exx-Pete Messina/Chip Tilton/New Orleans Chapter, exxx-Amtrak #3202 Laurel Stream, exxxx-PC #4413, nee-NYC #10628 (Budd, Lot #9663-023, Plan #9505, 1949).

#800863 Taos, baggage, ex-MRLX, exx-Amtrak HEP #1256 (wrecked at Cumberland, MD, in November 1999), exxx-Amtrak #1167, nee-AT&SF baggage-express-messenger #3680 (AC&F, Lot #04-4269, 1955).

#800881 Golden Shore, 40 seat ADA chair, ex-MRLX, exx-Amtrak HEP #4005 (no name), exxx-#4436 (44 seat chair), nee-SP #2373 (Budd, Lot #9613-140, 1954, Sunset Limited).

At this time, I don't know if Great Lakes actually owns the Indiana (having bought the car from Ozark Mountain), or if the GTLX reporting marks were simply used for the movement of the car to Moberly. Can anyone clarify? Thanks in advance!

Source:

1. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
GTLX is the reporting mark for Great Lakes Rail Car, which also owns 3 lightweight cars from the Mid-America fleet:


You can add to it these cars...

GTLX 104 THUNDER BAY (ex-MRLX 104, exx-RQAX, exxx-VIA 15300, exxxx-CN, nee-9261) LW generator car rblt. from baggage - express.
GTLX 9407 CHENQUATANA (ex-MRLX 9407, exx-RQAX 524, exxx-AMTK 9407, exxxx-9477, nee-NP 550) Budd slab-side dome - coach.

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