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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:23 am
Posts: 128
Location: willow grove pa
White Deer cars more information"
Horatio (12-1), McClellanville (12-1), Torrance (12-1), Urbana (12-1), and Voyager (10 Section 4 Duplex single rooms). This is from an old field trip, McClellanville I assume is what I show for Principio.

PRR 492763 8959 TORRANCE PS 12Sec 1Dr 1926
PRR 492516 8701 TROMBLEY / VOYAGER PS 10Sec 4Dup1911
PC 27420 8965 URBANA PS 12Sec 1Dr P-S 1925
PRR 492698 8820 HORATIO PS 12Sec 1Dr P-S 1925
PRR 493039 8910 PRINCIPIO PS 12sEC 1dR P-S 1924

Not to confuse but just showing information I had, not as good as most of the people on this board with research, thought I would put this out for info


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:31 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, RDGRAILFAN, for the additional info!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:54 am
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
ROALD AMUNDSEN is currently located at McCormick-Stillman Railroad Park in Scottsdale, Arizona. IIRC, she's owned by the City of Scottsdale and is open to the public on certain dates. I forget if anyone mentioned the Robert Peary in this post, but it's located at Campo. Pretty interesting that all four of the Presidential Pullmans still survive.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
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I think there is too much coffee in Seattle but we can thank that for all the work being done to make these lists possible.

First the Mountain Road (younger members of TVRM at the time called it the Mountain Wreck) and Lake Moreau (10-2-1 blt 1923 later SOU 2420) went to Cincinnati after the TVRM bankruptcy in the 1980s. They are shjown on the website for the Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati (in Latonia, KY) along with:

Lake Mansfield 10-2-1 1926
Overdale 14 sec
Jovita 12-1 1914

Maitland is the only Pullman car in sleeper configuration at TVRM. We have eight other cars that were built by the Southern from Pullman cars (three coaches, four baggage and one theater car). Do we really want to list all of them, or just surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping cars[u]?[/u]. If we go away from sleeping cars the list of survivors will go up considerably but, maybe that's OK.

Tim Andrews

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:13 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
"99. City of Peru... (to be refurbished by Pete Messina as sleeper)"

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. Not only is the car in bad shape but the shake-up with the NOPB's management about two years ago have called into question not only the millions (plural) of dollars spent on "98. City of Lafayette" and "100. City of Wabash" but their possible future. Last I have heard the two refurbished cars being used for special occasions but no images of the cars have been posted since the shake-up and there was talk of them being sold off if a buyer or buyers could be found.

Does anyone have any more recent info on these ex-WAB cars???

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
While we are at it does anyone know anything about the Cumberland Club that sees use on the Winchester & Western? This is not the correct name for the car (the prototype was a 8 Section - buffet lounge that was sold to the B&O)...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=930357
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3190714
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2303339
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=888593

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Thanks, Alan, for the info on the Roald Amundsen!

123. Roald Amundsen (Lot #6246, Plan #3972C, 1929, pvt. car, NYC)--sold to NYC #17 (2nd) (1948) to McCormick-Stillman RR Park

Thanks, Tim, for the info on the TVRM cars!

124. Lake Moreau (Lot #4725, Plan #3585, 1923, 10S-2C-1DR, SOU)--sold to SOU #2420 (1948) to TVRM to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati

125. Lake Mansfield (Lot #4996, Plan #3585A, 1926, 10S-2C-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1958) to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati

126. Overdale (Lot #6126, Plan #3958A, 1928, 14S)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Royal American Shows (1958) to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati

127. Jovita (Lot #4249, Plan #2410A, 1914/42, 12S-1DR)--Tourist #2386 sold to Royal American Shows (1948) to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati

Using the same parameters as I did with my earlier posts, the converted cars at TVRM would be included. Found some info on two of the eight:

128. Greencastle (Lot #4691, Plan #2416D, 1923, 1DR-plr [26 seats], PRR)--sold to NC&StL and converted to coach #734 (1941) to coach-lng-obs #1103 to TVRM

129. Medill (Lot #4443, Plan #2585E, 1916/50, 10S-2C-1DR, SOU)--Tourist #5125 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to SOU and converted to baggage-express #4530 (1953) to TVRM

Thanks, Jerry, for the info on the NOPB cars! Regarding the W&W Cumberland Club:

130. Ellendale (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8784 (1948) to Fred Winkler of the W&W as Cumberland Club--see here: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=43508&p=448078

J3a and the board--

Found another thread on surviving heavyweights while doing a Google search for info on the 6-3 Glen Blair:

Cars in need of assitance: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19681

Dean Levin states in the opening post that the Glen Blair (as of 2006) was owned and located at LASTA outside of New Orleans.

131 . Glen Blair (Lot #6124, Plan #3523C, 1928, 6C-3DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Ruben Darby-Darby Wood Products (1967) stored at Brunswick, MD car shops (owned by whom?) to LASTA

Some other cars mentioned in the thread:

132. City of Decatur (Lot #6038, Plan #3957K, 1927, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB, ex-Clara Morris)--sold to Wabash (1945) to N&W?? to Monticello RY Mus--see here: http://www.mrym.org/roster.html

133. Union League Club (Lot #6274, Plan #3989U, 1929, 8S-buf-sol-lng-obs, PRR)--sold to PRR #8628 (1948) to Railroader's Mem. Mus. to Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS

134. Lake Girard (Lot #4770, Plan #3585, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C, PRR)--sold to PRR #8663 (1948) to Everett RR and converted to open-air coach--see here: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8002/7338425366_f0d871968e_o.jpg (Imyers83 photo) (click once to enlarge)

135. Mineral Spring (Lot #6087, Plan #3416C, 1927, 1DR-plr [28 seats], PRR)--sold to PRR #7099 (1945) to pvt. owner in Rio Grande, NJ

136. Palm Beach (Lot #4422, Plan #2502B, 1916, 5BD pvt. car, TCRY)--sold to TCRY #102 (1942) to Nashville Chapter NRHS (1968) to TCRM (1993)--see here: http://www.tcry.org/palm_bch.htm

137. Queen Mary (Lot #4862, Plan #3957I, 1925, 1DR-plr [26 seats], WAB)--sold to WAB (1945) to PRR #7125 (1949) to PC to restaurant in Wayne, NJ

138. Richard Dale (Lot #4943, Plan #3410A, 1926, 12S-1DR, PRR)--sold to PRR #8917 (1948) to storage on Everett RR

In addition, one of the websites linked to earlier in this thread, http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Fan/pass_cars.html, has some additional cars listed:

139. J. Finley Wilson (Lot #4762, Plan #3410A, 1924, 12S-1DR, PRR, ex-Waltersburg)--sold to PRR #8968 (1948) to LIRR as commuter club #2003 South Shore (1957) to RY Mus of Greater Cincinnati--see here: http://dominionrailvoyages.com/jhd/lirr/page7.html

140. Villa Real (Lot #3880, Plan #3411, 1911/31/51, 10S-3DB, PRR, ex-Lenover)--Tourist #5141 retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Wabash #5634 (1953) to N&W MofW #565634 to Herman Page and Al Sauer in Raleigh--picture taken in 2008: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3075/2570797837_d065cbc306_o.jpg (Earl C. Leatherberry photo)

141. Mystery Car--the website also lists another surviving PRR sleeper, name Hazelton, a Plan #2410 12S-1DR built in 1910 and assigned to the PRR--later rebuilt to a Tourist sleeper, and sold to the GM&O or Columbus & Greenville, ending up in MofW service--car was acquired by the Portsmouth Chapter NRHS and was stored in Norfolk as of 2000 (when the list was typed up)--another list of extant PRR cars also has the same sleeper listed. However, this car does not have an entry in Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database. Hmm. Is the Hazelton a wood car with steel sheathing?? (That would explain its absence from the Pullman Project, which starts with the all-steel heavyweights.)
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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 343
Location: Morganton, N.C.
"141. Mystery Car--the website also lists another surviving PRR sleeper, name Hazelton, a Plan #2410 12S-1DR built in 1910 and assigned to the PRR--later rebuilt to a Tourist sleeper, and sold to the GM&O or Columbus & Greenville, ending up in MofW service--car was acquired by the Portsmouth Chapter NRHS and was stored in Norfolk as of 2000 (when the list was typed up)--another list of extant PRR cars also has the same sleeper listed. However, this car does not have an entry in Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database. Hmm. Is the Hazelton a wood car with steel sheathing?? (That would explain its absence from the Pullman Project, which starts with the all-steel heavyweights.)"

There is a Pullman car named Haselton, that is on the Bay Coast Rwy. out of Little Creek, Va., that is owned by the Tidewater Chapter NRHS... formerly owned by the Seaboard Air Line 70673, exx-PULL TC 1527 after being Haselton...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=685833
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=560830

And, thank you, Rainier Rails, for the info on the Cumberland Club. Will get the history put into the Index in the next day or so, once I thaw out from all the cold.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:04 am
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Location: Not Sure
Just as a note, the Palm Lane is only on lease to IPH. The CNY Chapter did not want to let it go. Also of note in NY is the Glen Sidel?, located in Remsen, NY and from what I understand it is also going to IPH.

JJ-


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8354
Location: Baltimore, MD
This is foggy memory at work here, but.....

Rainier Rails wrote:
141. Mystery Car--the website also lists another surviving PRR sleeper, name Hazelton, a Plan #2410 12S-1DR built in 1910 and assigned to the PRR--later rebuilt to a Tourist sleeper, and sold to the GM&O or Columbus & Greenville, ending up in MofW service--car was acquired by the Portsmouth Chapter NRHS and was stored in Norfolk as of 2000 (when the list was typed up)--another list of extant PRR cars also has the same sleeper listed. However, this car does not have an entry in Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database. Hmm. Is the Hazelton a wood car with steel sheathing?? (That would explain its absence from the Pullman Project, which starts with the all-steel heavyweights.)


What you list as the Portsmouth Chapter NRHS is actually the Tidewater Chapter, which had a substantial collection of passenger rolling stock in the 1980s and 1990s stored largely at Cape Charles and Little Creek, Va.--opposite ends of the Chesapeake Bay car float ferry--a subject for another time, I'd guess.....

Here's where the possible confusion comes about:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=560830

Note the caption indicating the ex-SAL origins and the misspelling (intentional?) of "Haselton".

Here it is a few years later:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=685833

Heck, if you want to open THAT can of worms and start fishing, start here:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiv ... x?id=15388

Now, the PRR (later PC and CR) had a Haselton Yard in Youngstown, Ohio, a small yard serving a couple steel mills there........ whereas Hazleton, in the coal regions near Wilkes-Barre and Scranton, was the end of a PRR-sponsored line up from Sunbury into the "coal regions". Neither is likely to have warranted a Pullman named after it alone, so.....


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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Rainier Rails wrote:

Okay, thought I'd add to this thread:


35. Inglehome (Lot #3865, Plan #2521, 1911, 10S-lng-obs)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Illinois RR Club (1959) to IRM--see here: http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?coaches=Pullman+Car=Inglehome

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Ranier Rails -

Thought somebody from IRM might chime in here, but since they haven't, a bit of clarification on the Inglehome. The actual name of the organization was the Illini Railroad Club (not the Illinois RR Club) and the car when owned by them was known as Chief Illini. When operated by them, she was painted orange with blue trim, the colors of the University of Illinois.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:20 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
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Location: Morganton, N.C.
"Note the caption indicating the ex-SAL origins and the misspelling (intentional?) of "Haselton"."

The problem is that the car's name is not mispelled. In both the book, The Complete List of Heavyweight Pullman Cars and in Tom Madden's Pullman Cae Construction Records the name is spelled with an "S".

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:31 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
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Location: Switching the Coach Yard
"128. Greencastle (Lot #4691, Plan #2416D, 1923, 1DR-plr [26 seats], PRR)--sold to NC&StL and converted to coach #734 (1941) to coach-lng-obs #1103 to TVRM"

Not exactly. 1103, er actually L&N 2599 belongs to VLIX, not TVRM.

ETA


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Baltimore, MD
So the history recounted at the PRR Survivors website about the car being PRR Hazleton then GM&O or C&G before being acquired by the Tidewater NRHS is in conflict with the photo captions saying the red car in Little Creek is a former SAL car. Anyone want to sort through that mess?

My presumption was that there might have actually been a "Hazleton" and that "Haselton" might have been a creative liberty taken by a later PV owner--they do such things now and then, you know.....


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:45 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:23 am
Posts: 128
Location: willow grove pa
again my research but may info shed some light and does not confuse things:

Pullman's "Hazelton
- unable to locate SAL# or name, web has spelling errors but same car, apparently was SAL at one time. Only reference is Hazelton . Sleeper (paint PRR) was assigned to assigned to PRR for a period of time configuration 12-1 1910 NRHS - Portsmouth Norfolk, VA Stored Built as Pullman's "Hazelton;" rebuilt 1940 as a 12-1 NO REFERENCE, 2 CARS ON SITE, car is panted in PRR paint with a baggage car. Visited site, no pictures, No one around to answer questions. Not in bad shape from my view point.

VILLA REAL - Sleeper, P3411 1910 owners of record Herman Page & Al Sauer, Raleigh, NC, not sure of how complete restoration is, I was in Raleigh area in spring of 2013 was told car was moved.
I show cross reference to PULLMAN (G)LENOVER #8803, name change? or wrong on my part.
Apparently was in Raleigh for some time but has been moved to North Alabama Railroad Museum (6/13 first reference)
http://www.northalabamarailroadmuseum.com/equip.htm


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