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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 am 
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Another car that was scrapped but still worth noting:

North Gate (Lot #4362, Plan #2521B/E, 1915, 10S-lng-obs)--sold to CB&Q #673 (1st) (1948) to #640 (2nd) (unknown date) to business car #94 (2nd) (1951) transferred to FW&D #94 General John A. Hulen (1954) transferred back to CB&Q #94 (1967) sold to Rail Travel Associates, Arlington, VA Virginia (1967) (based on photos the name Virginia may not have been applied and the name General John A. Hulen kept instead) to private owner, Lakeland, FL (unknown date) scrapped at Leesburg, FL (unknown date in 2000's)

Recently (last several months) I recall seeing a post somewhere about where this car was located back in the 80's (town, business name, etc.) but after several searches I can't find said post, either here, Trainorders, Facebook, etc., zilch. (Didn't think to bookmark it and being busy elsewhere, I didn't follow up on it immediately.)

Sources:

1. "Burlington Passenger Car Roster, 1869-1930's, Revised and with Cross-References" by William L. Glick (Quincy House, 1987)

2. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

3. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:27 am 
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One more scrapped car to note, and then a survivor...

I don't have info on where, when, or by whom, but this car was also reported to be scrapped several years ago (it hadn't come up in this thread before now).

Bankers' Club (Lot #6274, Plan #3989A/F/M/N, 1929, 8S-buf-lng-sol-obs, PRR)--sold to PRR #8622 (1948) to MofW #492381 (1957) to private ownership (unknown date) later scrapped (unknown date)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:44 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Survivor identified, thanks to MP Historical Society members Ted Ferkenhoff and Bill Pollard.

On Friday, January 17th, 2014, 12th Post on Page #11, Rainier Rails wrote:
Here's two additional mystery cars:

First car: according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #2585 10S-1DR-2C, which entered MP MofW service as #X3488 and is now in Wagoner, OK.

a. In August 2011, end view: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3483939 (Bob McGilvray photo)

b. In August 2011, side view: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3483938 (Bob McGilvray photo)
On Monday, January 27th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #13, Rainier Rails wrote:
292. According to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #2585 10S-1DR-2C, which entered MP MofW service as #X3488 and is now in Wagoner, OK.

292. Rio Mezcala (Lot #4328, Plan #2585B/D/E, 1915, 10S-1DR-2C, ex-Sikeston, Scenic Limited)--sold to MP (1948) to MofW MPX #3488 at Sedalia (March 1964) to museum, Wagoner, OK (unknown date)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:12 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Another survivor (found in a roundabout way).

On Monday, January 21st, 2019, 1st Post on Page #39, Rainier Rails wrote:
Another car that was scrapped but still worth noting:

North Gate (Lot #4362, Plan #2521B/E, 1915, 10S-lng-obs)--sold to CB&Q #673 (1st) (1948) to #640 (2nd) (unknown date) to business car #94 (2nd) (1951) transferred to FW&D #94 General John A. Hulen (1954) transferred back to CB&Q #94 (1967) sold to Rail Travel Associates, Arlington, VA Virginia (1967) (based on photos the name Virginia may not have been applied and the name General John A. Hulen kept instead) to private owner, Lakeland, FL (unknown date) scrapped at Leesburg, FL (unknown date in 2000's)

Recently (last several months) I recall seeing a post somewhere about where this car was located back in the 80's (town, business name, etc.) but after several searches I can't find said post, either here, Trainorders, Facebook, etc., zilch. (Didn't think to bookmark it and being busy elsewhere, I didn't follow up on it immediately.)

I had recalled seeing a photo of the above car in Wildwood, FL, back in the 80's, but after searching for it, I couldn't locate it again (didn't think to bookmark it, silly me). While looking for something else this evening, checked a photo of fellow CB&Q business car #87 (2nd), or what I thought was a photo of the #87, but it was the photo of the #94 I had seen before. But, then realizing that the #87 was also rebuilt from a Pullman, checked the BRHS list of extant CB&Q cars, and guess what, #87 is still around according to said list, but it has never been mentioned here before, so:

443. El Onate (Lot #4202, Plan #2521/E, 1913, 10S-lng-obs, California Limited)--sold to CB&Q #670 (1st) (1948) to #637 (2nd) (unknown date) rebuilt to business car #87 (2nd) (Aurora, 10/51) sold to American Steel Treating Company #87, Terra Cotta, IL (4/1967) to TC Industries, Crystal Lake, IL (unknown date)

Oh, and here's the photo of #94, at LEMAC, in Wildwood, FL, in 1983: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/13922579999

Note that the PRR lightweight next to the #94 is the Lionel Ives (ex-Alder Falls), which is listed as retired in 1971 and sold to "Trains & Travel Limited" in Arlington, VA; it would seem logical to assume that "Trains & Travel Limited" and "Rail Travel Associates", both based in Arlington, might be related or the same company. Unlike the #94, which was eventually scrapped, the Lionel Ives survives, now owned by M&E.

Sources:

1. "Burlington Passenger Car Roster, 1869-1930's, Revised and with Cross-References" by William L. Glick (Quincy House, 1987)

2. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

3. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

4. "Streamliner Cars Volume One: Pullman Standard" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

5. BRHS list of extant CB&Q passenger cars: http://www.burlingtonroute.org/Qrailroad/roster/remaining_passenger.php

6. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:05 pm 
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Found a photo of another two possible cars, both on display(?) at Fairchild AFB in Washington.

Image

According to the photo, they are DAFX 7 and 17, dunno if those are correct or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:51 am 
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Yes, those would be correct. Knew about these, but not which cars they were specifically, so thanks for that. DAFX #7 and #17 would be:

444. Chief Wolf Robe (Lot #6338, Plan #3973A, 1930, 10S-1DR-1C, NP)--retained 12/31/1948--renamed Ojos Tapatios 7/56-6/58, sold to U.S. Gov't and rebuilt to DAFX #17 (12/61)

445. Andrew Squire (Lot #6357, Plan #3958A, 1930, 14S, PRR)--sold to PRR #8982 (1948), government storage (as of 3/61), off of Pullman lease (8/61), and sold to U.S. Gov't, rebuilt to DAFX #7 (circa 1961)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:43 pm 
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Got another three here, DAFX 6, DAFX 22 and DAFX 24, which were at one point stored near Ogden. Dunno if they are still there.

Image
Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:19 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Yes, no way of knowing without a local report if those 3 are still there, as the photos are from June 2005, so almost 14 years since. So, I won't assign line item numbers until we know one way or the other.

William Watts Folwell (Lot #6334, Plan #3979A, 1929, 8S-1DR-2C, Blackhawk)--retained 12/31/1948--sold to U.S. Gov't and rebuilt as DAFX #6 (10/62)

Alpine Clover (Lot #6357, Plan #3958A, 1930, 14S, Columbine)--retained 12/31/1948--listed as retired (1/62), subsequently sold to U.S. Gov't (likely on the date of retirement listed) and rebuilt as DAFX #22

Caddo (Lot #4945, Plan #3410A, 1926, 12S-1DR, Sunset Limited)--retained 12/31/1948--sold to U.S. Gov't and rebuilt as DAFX #24 (12/61)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:58 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
On Friday, January 18th, 2019, 11th Post on Page #38, Rainier Rails wrote:

As discussed in the "Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States" group on Facebook, these 2 cars are not the Plan #3585A 10S-1DR-2C sleepers Lake Alexander (Lot #4817, 1924, North Coast Limited, to SAL #1251) and Lake Borgne (Lot #4996, 1926, Sunset Limited, to SAL #1250), but rather are:

273. Cameron Pass (Lot #6334, Plan #3979A, 1930, 8S-1DR-2C, C&NW)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW #65310 (1962) to SCL #765310 to SBD to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987)

274. Vassar College (Lot #4527, Plan #4042, 1917/34, 10S-2DB-1C, ex-Plan #2585D 10S-1DR-2C Moffett, UP, rebuilt for Havana Special)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW #65348 (1960) to SCL #765348 to SBD to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987)

The thread in the FB group also brought up that this donation/acquisition from CSX also included a 3rd unidentified ex-Pullman from the MofW department, so:

442. Unknown Pullman in MofW service as a "pie car" to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987), used as a party car

As posted in the GCRM equipment sale thread the museum lists this 3rd car as the:

442. Swarthmore College (Lot #4527, Plan #4042, 1917/34, 10S-2DB-1C, ex-Plan #2585D 10S-1DR-2C Mohawk, NYC, rebuilt for Havana Special)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW #653xx (1960) to SCL #7653xx to SBD to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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Ted Brumberg


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:33 pm
Posts: 20
Ted,

There is a heavyweight Pullman (?) car at Fredericksburg Texas which is believed to be from the Quanah Acme & Pacific Railroad, thought to be originally the personal private car of Texas rancher Samuel Burkburnett who died about 1922. If it is that car, Teddy Roosevelt rode on it for a wolf hunt in 1905.

The car number is 6666.

Do you have this car on your list? The provenance is uncertain....

Here are some pictures of it: https://www.fredericksburg-lodging.com/ ... ce-car.htm

- William Osborn


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:32 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
wosborn wrote:
Ted,

There is a heavyweight Pullman (?) car at Fredericksburg Texas which is believed to be from the Quanah Acme & Pacific Railroad, thought to be originally the personal private car of Texas rancher Samuel Burkburnett who died about 1922. If it is that car, Teddy Roosevelt rode on it for a wolf hunt in 1905.

The car number is 6666.

Do you have this car on your list? The provenance is uncertain....

Here are some pictures of it: https://www.fredericksburg-lodging.com/1894-private-pullman-palace-car.htm

- William Osborn


With that being a wood car, it would be in the parameters of the wood business car thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39555

I think the information is correct, other than when the Frisco acquired the car (and it was actually leased). Info on the Frisco website indicates it was 1925 (and the diagram confirms this), not 1922. Went back to the QA&P in 1950.

From the Frisco website: http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/business-car-general.849/

chris wrote:
•Leased to SL-SF 1925; Renumbered #1925.
•Renumbered #8 (5-9-1947)
•Renumbered #10 (3-24-1948)
•Returned to QA&P (12-29-1950)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:05 pm 
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Found an image of another possible car.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/drdave1000/8139464602/in/photostream/

Supposedly, according to the geotag on the picture, this carbody is in Tonawanda, NY. I'm also not certain that this is a Pullman sleeper as the combination of the fencing and vegetation make it diffcult to see the window arrangement.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:38 am 
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VinylRailfan wrote:
Found an image of another possible car.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/drdave1000/8139464602/in/photostream/

Supposedly, according to the geotag on the picture, this carbody is in Tonawanda, NY. I'm also not certain that this is a Pullman sleeper as the combination of the fencing and vegetation make it diffcult to see the window arrangement.


I would concur that this is most likely a former Pullman parlor or sleeper. Single windows at the near end and the pediment end in particular would point towards that. But note no remnants of an A/C roof duct on this side, so either an all-room car, a parlor, or a non-A/C'ed car, i.e., likely from tourist service.

Anyone have info on this car, or if it is still there over 6 years later?

(But, like the 3 DAFX simulator cars that were in Utah, I don't want to necessarily assign a line item yet until more info is found about the history or status.)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:35 am 
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Rainier Rails wrote:
As posted in the GCRM equipment sale thread the museum lists this 3rd car as the:

442. Swarthmore College (Lot #4527, Plan #4042, 1917/34, 10S-2DB-1C, ex-Plan #2585D 10S-1DR-2C Mohawk, NYC, rebuilt for Havana Special)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW #653xx (1960) to SCL #7653xx to SBD to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987)

As discussed in the Surviving Passenger Cars in the U.S. group on Facebook, there is still some question as to whether or not this is the correct ID for this car, but it is for now the most likely ID. Determining the car's ACL/SCL/SBD MofW number and checking that against records would be the final word.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:14 am 
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On Thursday, November 15th, 2018, 10th Post on Page #36, Rainier Rails wrote:
On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:
115. Marco Polo (Lot #6037, Plan #3972, 1927, 5BD pvt. car, CofG)--sold to CofG Atlanta (1944) to NS #30 Marco Polo

Okay, I realized I got some car histories scrambled, as this was actually the Savannah, not the Atlanta.

It was reported in January that the NS #30 was moved out of its long-time position at the platforms of Union Station in D.C. back to Juniata (Altoona), no further info on what the plans are for this car's continued usage by NS.

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