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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:11 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:22 pm
Posts: 69
AC # 552 Michipicoten was gifted from the ACR/CN to the Illinois Historic Preservation Agency in December 2007 once it's ties to Pullman and Robert Todd Lincoln were established. Their goal is to cosmetically restore the car and display it next to the nicely rehabbed Illinois Central "Lincoln Depot" in Springfield, IL as part of the Lincoln Museum campus.

The car has been stored at Gateway Rail Services since it's donation, awaiting restoration. The car is very original inside, save for a few updated (I dare not say modern) system items - wood sash windows and the original dining room table marked "Advance".

MRLX1020

Rainier Rails wrote:
Onc car that I excluded initially because I didn't have a current or near-current status was the:

Asheville (Lot #3848, Plan #2502, 1911, pvt. car, ex-Advance [1st])--sold to Algoma Central #552 Michipicoten (1944)

I know this car lasted for a long time on the ACR--see here: http://trainweb.org/algoma/proster.html

Does anyone know the current status of this car??

Pictures:

1. http://trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/ACR/michipicoten.jpg

2. http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/AlgoCenRy/mich.jpg

3. http://trainweb.org/algoma/Images/Passenger/ac552.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
149. White Castle (Lot #4574, Plan #4046A, 1920/36, 12S-2DB, NYC, ex-Auckland)--sold to P&LE (1948) to Ohio Central--was this car transferred to the collection at the roundhouse??


Yes...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2036389

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:21 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
The car in the photo is how I remember it, in the later Pullman pool color scheme that was also used by NYC.


And let's not forget the Seaboard Air Line as well...

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sal1214.jpg
http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Dave-England-Photos/Passenger-Equipment/i-vj2wz2H/A
http://rr-fallenflags.org/sal/sal-pullman.jpg
http://rr-fallenflags.org/sal/sal-pop-sprg-r.jpg

Some other roads also used this scheme on their former Pullman cars but did not place their name on the letterboard... ATSF quickly comes to mind, on their Tribe cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1734
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Tim, for the info on Greencastle and Sea Island!

Thanks, ADM IV, for the info on B&O Royal Blue/Columbian observation #3303!

Thanks, MRLX1020, for the info on ACR Michipicoten!

Now listed as line item No. 155:

155. Asheville (Lot #3848, Plan #2502, 1911, pvt. car, ex-Advance [1st])--sold to ACR #552 Michipicoten (1944) to Illinois Historic Preservation Agency (2007)

Thanks, Jerry, for the info on White Castle, and for the pictures of Poplar Road, Poplar Run, and Poplar Springs!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 1734
Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Here's a few survivors I completely forgot about:

156. Balsam Fir (Lot #6358, Plan #3973A, 1930, 10S-1C-1DR, UP)--sold to UP (1948) converted to dynamometer #210 (1964) to #903001 to mobile laboratory UPP* #210

I had the opportunity to take a few photos of this car back in August when I was waiting to depart on the westbound California Zephyr from Denver. As the CZ was making the backing move into the (currently) one and only platform, the #210 was on the rear, which was uncoupled and left at the platform before we made our departure. UP has added sixteen solar panels to the roof of the #210, as well as modifying the roof at one end of the car to include an upper enclosure for (I'm guessing) the installation of different scientific instruments--looks like a very short dome of sorts. By the way, does anyone know the #800xxx-series number for the #210?? (UP doesn't seem to have it stenciled on the side.)

*UPP is the reporting mark for Union Pacific Passenger

N&W Pullmans:

157. Dinwiddie County (Lot #4998, Plan #3521F, 1926, 10S-sol-lng-obs, N&W, ex-Dinwiddie, nee-Mt. Angeles)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Old Dominion Chapter NRHS and used on SOU excursions (1965)--see here: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35581 (see page 2)

158. Norfolk County (Lot #4998, Plan #3521G, 1926, 10S-sol-lng-obs, N&W, ex-Mt. Wood)--retained (12/31/1948)--sold to Chapman S. Root-Root Company (Daytona Beach, FL) (1968) to Bill Savage to Al Nippert to Indiana RY Mus (French Lick)--see here: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35581 (see page 2)

Pullman Private Car:

159. Pioneer (Lot #6037, Plan #3972A, 1927, 5BD pvt. car, SAL, for a time renamed Friendship)--sold to SAL #106 Jacksonville (1944) to SCL to Bill Savage #800156 to Al Nippert #800254 to Indiana RY Mus (French Lick)--see here: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35581 (see page 2)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
The Old Dominion Chapter also owns:

160. McGirth (Lot #4845, Plan #3410, 1925, 12S-1DR, SOU)--sold to CNO&TP #3512 (1948) to Old Dominion Chapter NRHS--see here: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22691, here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3227175 (Russell Underwood photo) and here: http://imagestorage.greatrails.net/photos/2008/12/04/2008120415323619451.jpg (Win Goodier photo) (click once to enlarge) (the fire damage visible is minimal--started by a hobo years ago)

161. Brentwood (Lot #6023, Plan #3410G, 1926, 12S-1DR, SOU)--sold to SOU #2463 (1948) to Old Dominion Chapter NRHS--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1274603 (Russell Underwood photo)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:13 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Here's two other mystery cars:

The West Virginia Central owns a Plan #3521 10S-lng-obs (as #120) whose identity remains unknown. The WVC website says it was formerly owned by the White River Scenic as #1, which was formerly SP business car #110 Los Angeles. This is not the case, as this linked thread discusses: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31717

The same thread mentions another heavyweight which was formerly "Kennickell's Pullman Palace" in Richmond, and was for sale at some point. Apparently it was also a Plan #3521 10S-lng-obs.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:56 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
Posts: 84
The TVRM cars (in addition to the two already mentioned at TVRM)

Bohemian 12-1 12/12 2410 4076 TC 3098 Sou Baggage 4064 9/53, TVRM

Hazen 10S-1DR-2CPT 11-12/11 2585 3942 Sold to Sou 2402 Sou Coach 1037 (1954) TVRM

Kermiss 12-1 9-10/17 2410F 4525 TC 2227 Sou Baggage 598 1948 TVRM

Point Airy 10-2 10/25-26 3584A 4932 TC 3506 Sou Coach 1033 to City of Andersonville to TVRM (2013)

Sophocles 12S-1DR –CPT 10-12/21 2411C 4824 TC 3154 Sou Bag 9/53 TVRM

Spring Brook Club 8S-Rest-Lng-Obs 4025 4484 to Unknown Pullman to Sou Coach 1036 to SOU 960419 to TVRM (2013)

Sueno 12-1 10-12/20 2410F 4591 TC 2220 (6/38) Sou SA1 (Safety Assembly) 1949 Sou 23 to TVRM 23

I will work on the other ex Southern Cars (original configurations and conversions) tomorrow.

Tim Andrews
Chattanooga (where it will be 60 on Sunday)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:18 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
Sueno 12-1 10-12/20 2410F 4591 TC 2220 (6/38) Sou SA1 (Safety Assembly) 1949 Sou 23 to TVRM 23


I have seen two other numbers that were supposedly wore by this car... thank you for sharing its history!!!

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/souSA1.jpg
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/passenger/sou27safetycaratlantaloncoo.html
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/passenger/sousafety24.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lrmyers/9030648310

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:27 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1590
Location: Southern California
All the stuff about Haselton and Hazelton got me interested and I finally had time to look at my books:

I pulled out my copies of Ralph L. Barger's
Century of PULLMAN CARS: Volume I Alphabetical List, 1988, and Century of PULLMAN CARS: Volume II The Place Cars, 1990:

There was a wooden car named HAZELTON with 10Sec-1 Drawing Room and a Buffet that was built by Pullman at Detroit with a date of 10/22/1880; plan 63 1/2, Lot D77.
This car was first named BREMEN; in 1887 goes to the MP Assoc/; then circa 1900 it is renamed HAZELTON. Berger then lists that the car was sold in 4/08 to the dealer Hotchkiss Blue & Company, an equipment dealer located in Chicago.

Then came the steel car named HASELTON A 12-1 completed 10/15/10 to plan 2410, lot 3814.

Robert Wayner in The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars, 1985, reports that this was a group of 50 cars for use on the PRR. HASELTON was converted to Tourist Car 1527 as of 12/40; 12/47 sold to SAL; to work car 70673. Tom Madden has the dates of the changes to the day of the month; and his record stops with the sale to SAL.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:32 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1590
Location: Southern California
I'm surprised that the following car has not been mentioned. Maybe because it is now a lounge car -- but it was a Pullman and rebuilt by Pullman.

HOLTON built as a 16 section car to Plan 2412A, Lot 4101 completed Feb. 19, 1913
20 cars were constructed to this Lot number; 10 cars (including HOLTON) for "San Francisco Overland Limited"

Rebuilt 1931 (in service May 11, 1931) to Plan 4006B - Buffet Lounge Car with Sun Room and numbered 653 for lease to Western Pacific. For use as WP contribution to CB&Q/D&RGW/WP "Scenic Limited."

Sold to Western Pacific March 26, 1935, and retained number 653. Assigned to "Scenic Limited" and then to "Exposition Flyer." Retired 1965.

Donated to Bay Area electric Railroad Association (Western Railway Museum, Rio Vista Jct., California) January, 1966. Used on excursion trains; added name "FEATHER RIVER." Used in the movie "Harold and Maud."

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am
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Location: Seattle, WA - Land of Coffee
Thanks, Tim, for the info on the SOU converted cars now at TVRM!

162. Bohemian--when it was changed to a tourist sleeper in 1940, it was painted in AT&SF TTG for the Scout

163. Hazen
164. Kermess
165. Point Airy
166. Sophocles

167. Spring Brook Club--was this car still in NS MofW service when it was acquired by TVRM in 2013?

168. Sueno--was "safety assembly" a type of instruction car?

Thanks, Brian, for the info about the two cars that carried the same name, albeit spelled differently, and for the info on Holton!

169. Holton

Some more survivors and a few "where are they now?" cars:

170. Monteith (Lot #3912, Plan #2412A, 1911/35, 16S, L&A)--Tourist #4127 sold to L&A and converted to coach #353 to Harry Gamberg to café to Meridian RR Mus as Miss Alva--see here: http://web.archive.org/web/20110727081621im_/http://www.meridian-railroad-museum.org/images/missalva_small.jpg

171. Corot (Lot #4887, Plan #3523A, 1925, 6C-3DR, SOU)--sold to SOU #2520 (1948) converted to business car #14 to #1 to #9 to pvt. owner Intrepid (#800034)--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2686887 (Mark Herren photo)

172. Lexington (Lot #6055, Plan #3410A, 1927, 12S-1DR, TCRY, ex-Portsmouth)--sold to SOU #2475 (1948) converted to business car #4 Tennessee to Conrail #4 to NS #5 Maryland (#800356)--see here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3627885 (Seth Lakin photo)

173. La Fontaine Club (2nd) (Lot #4531, Plan #4025T, 1918/32, 8S-buf-lng, SOU, ex-Cuyama)--sold to SOU #2509 (1948) converted to coach #1032 converted to track inspection car #19 Buena Vista to NS #23 (#800776)

174. Point Richmond (Lot #4961, Plan #3584A, 1926, 10S-2DR, CNO&TP)--sold to CNO&TP #3509 (1948) converted to business car SOU #21 to research car #R-1 to NS #31 to VMT--see here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3284639 (Jim Owens photo) (note the bay window)

Where Are They Now?:

Van Cortlandt (Lot #6371, Plan #3987, 1930, bag-buf-plr, SOU)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #2 (1945) to PC #1 to C&NW #402 Iowa--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/rspicture.aspx?id=216818 and here: http://www.cnwhs.org/memberphotos/albums/userpics/10025/Business%20Car%20%23402%20Bertram%2C%20ia..jpg (C&NW Historical Society photo)

National Park (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-plr, SOU)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #9 (1945) to #8 to #5 to #8 to NS #8 Tennessee--I think I have the numbering sequence right--does anyone know the current status of this car?? I haven't found any recent photos.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:50 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:22 pm
Posts: 69
NS #8 TENNESSEE -currently for sale by owner, stored at Gateway Rail Services in Madison, IL. Car was in the process of being upgraded for Amtrak operation. It's Southern OSH tread brake trucks were sold to another PV owner, so they are not with the car anymore.

National Park (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-plr, SOU)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #9 (1945) to #8 to #5 to #8 to NS #8 Tennessee--I think I have the numbering sequence right--does anyone know the current status of this car?? I haven't found any recent photos.


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:32 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:31 am
Posts: 366
Location: Morganton, N.C.
Quote:
National Park (Lot #4885, Plan #3951L, 1925, bag-buf-plr, SOU)--sold to SOU and converted to business car #9 (1945) to #8 to #5 to #8 to NS #8 Tennessee...


Was SOU 5 before becoming NS 8, per NS business car diagrams.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:02 am
Posts: 620
Location: Albany, Georgia
I don't recall if I have ever mentioned these two Pullmans in earlier threads or not, but I didn't see them mentioned in this thread, so...

In west-central Georgia there are 2 privately-owned Pullman sleepers that were purchased from Seaboard Coast Line in 1979 and moved to the owner's property where they were used as facilities for the local private fair. I recently (June 2013) had the opportunity to look at the cars again and can provide the following information.

Car 1- the "red" car. This is a former 10 sect-1 cpt-2DBR sleeper that was acquired by the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad. Remnants of ACL lettering are still on the car but no traces of a number are visible. The car was converted to work train service with showers replacing both men's and women's lounges. The sections were removed. What may have originally been in this area in work train service is unknown, but the space had a concessions counter, refrigerator and sink installed for use at the fair.

There were 5 or 6 of these cars purchased by ACL, depending on the source. All were from the Pullman "College" series: Columbia, Rollins, Southern, Swarthmore, Sweet Briar and Vassar. With exception of the "Rollins College", which was mentioned in only one of two rosters I have, all are indicated as off the ACL roster by 1963. I've found no information that will help identify which of the 6 this car may be. It is in poor condition with missing windows, rusted -through side sheets in the men's lounge shower room and roof leaks. Trucks are bolted-pedestal.

Car 2 - the "green" car. This is a former 8 sect - 1 DR - 2 cpt sleeper matching the floor arrangement of the Plan 3979A layout. There were nine (9) possible candidates acquired by Atlantic Coast Line. The possibilities are: Algonquin Park, Cameron Pass, Centcrest, Centolio, Chas. E. Perkins, Rock Cliff, Rock Dell, Rock Isle and Rock Springs. All 9 cars are noted as being off the ACL roster by 1965.

Car 2 retains its MOW number of SCL 765432. According to the standard renumbering applied at the time of the ACL/SAL merger in 1967, this car should have been ACL 65432. Unfortunately, there are no discovered records to match this number with the original Pullman name. It is in moderately better condition than the other. It still retains all interior partitions and the section seating and upper berths, but all the "jewelery" was removed years ago. Most windows are intact but I did see roof leak indications (staining) on some interior walls. Trucks are bolted pedestal.

I wanted to go ahead and get this information into the thread. I recall some of the names having been mentioned already, so those can probably be removed from consideration in identifying these 2 former ACL cars. Perhaps someone else can resolve the identity question. I've exhausted all my available resources.

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