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 Post subject: Re: Southern 10-6 sleepers
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 347
I don't know what shop did the work on the re-siding of the PS-built cars, but somewhere I seem to recall that it was done in-house and might have been done at their Hayne Shops in Spartenburg, SC. I believe all of the 10-6's were done, as well as the high-window sleeper lounge observation "Royal" series cars and the 4 "Crescent" series cars. Keep in mind though, that they only did their own Company-owned SOU and CNO&TP cars. There were 49 cars in the big PS 10-6 order, with PRR, L&N, FEC, WofA, and A&WP also participating, and I don't believe any of those cars were rebuilt in this manner. I don't know if any of the eleven SOU 14-4's were rebuilt.

There isn't any easy, fool-proof way to tell if one of these cars was re-sided with stainless, except the time-honored method of hitting the fluting with one's fist or the palm of your hand to see if the fluting is secure and no "cascading rust" sounds are heard behind the fluting.

Amtrak rebuilt some PS-built former ACL "County" series and SAL "City" series 10-6 sleepers in a similar manner in the early '70's, but they used flat Cor-Ten sheets instead of stainless behind the fluting. When re-attaching the fluting, Amtrak typically did not use stainless steel fasteners, so the fluting on those cars tended to suffer "pre-mature detachment syndrome" from the car side, even though the steel side sheets underneath might have still been in decent shape.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:18 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8392
Location: Baltimore, MD
Dave wrote:
Lack of archaic hardware is probably less an obstacle than landlocked status. If I were a tourist line interested in the look of a classic E, I'd prefer the running gear and control systems of today I could buy off the shelf and maintain easily inside it.


If you were a tourist line interested in the look of a classic E and did your research, you would probably find a few far better candidates out there, including a couple probably still "available" complete with rebuilt 645 engines and HEP.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:03 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 319
I am 99% certain that the stainless sheets behind the fluting were done by PS at the time they were ordered by SR. A previous (1941?) series of PS cars did not have that feature and we find most of those cars cut-up by the late 1940's. The PS built observation cars for the Southerner and the Tennessean were prime examples...cut up with no attempt to rebuild...the trucks were saved and used on a newer order.

I am told this was exclusive of SR cars. Other railroads may have installed some sheets behind the fluting...not sure.

I have seen this on 10-6's, 14-4, diners, bedroom-lounges and coaches. There are a few of the older SR cars still around that were built without the sheet and they are in bad shape.

T7


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:29 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 420
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
Termite is correct (as usual), the Southern 1949 PS cars had the stainless side sheets from the factory. I also want to say that all of the other participants in this pool order were done the same way -- I know the A&WP/WofA cars were for sure. The exception was the cars ordered for the Pennsy. Somewhere in the SRHA archive is a memo from PRR stating that a Cor-Ten side sheet provided just as good of corrosion resistance at a reduced cost. Yet one more of PRR's "Standard Railroading Mistakes".

Now, one improvement that Hayne did make to *some* of these PS cars was replacement of the end sills at the vestibule with stainless box tube instead of the Cor-Ten. Perhaps this is the "mod" that was being thought of elsewhere? Also, the 1958 coaches, 840 thru 846 were constructed this exact same way with stainless side sheets over a Cor-Ten framework.

The fellow that owns this equipment was a former SL-SF employee in the Birmingham area, and a heck of a nice guy. TVRM traded the coach and sleeper to him for a Cof GA combine that he purchased at the NS auction at the old steam shop at Birmingham.


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 Post subject: Re: Southern 10-6 sleepers
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm
Posts: 347
That is quite interesting. If it is true that these cars had factory "stainless over stainless" (over a Cor-Ten frame) construction, then I certainly stand corrected. My understanding has been that PS did not start offering cars built that way until roughly 1954. I guess one way to find out for sure would be to peruse a copy of the PS Technical Specification for Lot 6814, available thru the Pullman Library at IRM. I just might have to order one of those.......


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:44 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
Enjoying the interesting conversation, appreciate the input on the PS Southern cars and the manner in which these cars were ordered.... I thought I would offer two comparison photographs of two cars of similar age, and similar neglect ( photographs taken about 3 months ago ) ... My recollection is the first picture was a B&O car that I believe eventually went into Amtrak service... ( I am not 100 percent positive, however going by memory ) and the second photograph is an ex Southern car ... I offer the photographs in comparison and to show a not too often view of the cars without their fluting intact.... These cars were scrapped about 3 months ago, in Jefferson Parish Louisiana and were the property of LASTA....I believe these cars were previously abandoned in place by Al Nippert, with LASTA legally obtaining ownership before scrapping... They certainly show the results of private owner neglect... as when I walked the cars a few years ago, they were mostly complete.. In a matter of a few years, vandals completed the job that the weather started years ago, rendering these cars ( and a few others I photographed ) ready for scrap...

Nonetheless, no matter if these cars were built from PS with stainless behind the fluting ( which I suspect they were ), or modified by the Southern, the results, as shown by two equally neglected cars, makes quite an impression on the longevity of the stainless side sheets....

Not intending to change the direction of the conversation, however thought the look into two cars equally neglected was of interest....


Dean Levin


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 319
I did not know about the stainless in the end sills...that is news to me and very interesting indeed.

If you know anything about the SR it is that as a corporation they were very "thrifty" and if they saw a reoccuring mechanical problem they would eventually find a way to "fix" the problem that would minimize the cost of ongoing repairs. They re-silvered their own silver, engraved lantern globes in-house, resawed crossties into lumber...it goes on and on. So when the new lightweight equipment became popular they were a little slow to buy into that program...and low and behold the first set they bought was not satisfactory. So when they bought the new equipment they made sure changes were made to prevent reoccurences. Another good example was their brush with Alco locomotives...they bought the DL-109's...quickly traded those for PA's...and when those too had problems...out the door they went and they never looked back. They did not wait years for those changes either...they moved on quickly.

T7


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:19 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 420
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
...and yes they learned a lot from the 1941 cars. Enough to know in 1945/1946 when specs were being written for the 1949 order that stainless side sheets were in order. even more telling was that by the late 1950s the '41 models were headed to the scrap heap while much older equipment was still earning its keep. Some of the 1941 cars barely made it 15 years in service.

Interesting, though not surprising, the LASTA cars getting cut. Were any parts salvaged? I know a museum that could use a pair of those trucks if the price were right.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
Trucks were sold off to be reused ( however at least a pair had cracked frames ) .. nonetheless.... here are a few other pictures from Sumiton.....


Dean Levin


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:21 am
Posts: 535
Location: Yardley, PA (near Phila)
davew833 wrote:
Thanks for the update and pictures, Dean. I, for one, have been guilty of believing the lie that once a piece of equipment is restored, it stays that way.


Ain't that the scary truth!
An entire SEPARATE thread could be generated starting with Lackawanna 565 or...

/Mitch


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8392
Location: Baltimore, MD
Mgoldman wrote:
An entire SEPARATE thread could be generated starting with Lackawanna 565 or...


Reading 2100, or the Santa Fe diesel collection, or GTW 5629, or SR 722, or NKP 759, or the former Tex-Mex PRR P70's, or any number of PCC Cars, or the D&H Alco PA's and Sharks, or.......

Mind you, some of the above haven't been scrapped, but a few almost might as well be..... At the very least, they're all a far cry from what got them featured in magazines years ago.......

And, you know, it doesn't take really that much for us or our heirs to be saying the same thing 25 years from now about, say, SP 4449, or PRR 5711/5809, or N&W 1218, or AT&SF 3751, or the Iowa Interstate QJ's, or Amtrak 307, or Susquehanna 142, or......


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 319
Let me throw this out here for discussion: Somebody recently told me that AT&SF opened up the sides of their PS lightweight cars and if they saw rusty sidesills they would cut them out and weld in new Stainless steel structural members.

Now I ask, is this true (have you seen it first hand)? How did this hold up? Because I assume they had to weld part of the stainless to carbon steel eventually...so didn't this just move the problem from one area to another? And last of all...can you "weld" stainless steel to corten or other steels? (While I am no expert in welding I was a machinst in another life and know that every metal has chacteristics and qualities to do make them very different from one another. It seem crazy to me that a Class 1 was patching together two different metals. Please prove me wrong.)

T7


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:44 am
Posts: 629
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Here's an off-the-top-of-my-head list of then newly-restored equipment that got me excited in the '80s that's since fallen back into the category of "needing restoration" either cosmetically or operationally. Not a value judgement on groups or individuals, or the circumstances that led them to be where they are now, or a comment on current progress, just another reminder that restored equipment doesn't stay that way on its own.

N&W 611
N&W 1218
PRR 1361
PRR 1223
PRR 7002
C&O 614
Reading 2100
Reading 2102
Cotton Belt 819
NKP 587
BM&R ex-PRR E-units
RI E6 630
RI E9 651
ex-D&H PA #19
ex-D&H PA #17
The '84 'World's Fair Daylight' trainset

I'm sure there are some I'm missing, and again, it's not an indictment against individuals, groups, or events- I'm just sayin'.

_________________
David Wilkinson
KSL TV, Salt Lake City, UT


Last edited by davew833 on Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 390
Location: Winters, TX
Wow, it didn't hit home the magnitude of 5706's downfall until I was watching "Trains & Locomotives" on the RFD channel tonight. It featured the Blue Reading 425 and E8 diesels in 1986. How'd something that beautiful back then come to its current fate? There oughta be a law...

BTW, that episode repeats tonight for those who get RFD-TV.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:04 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 746
Location: NJ
OMG! Charlie, you're right! I saw that show last night and didn't put the two together. Just how does an organization put time and money into retoration of a diesel locomotive (or two) just to let them deteriorate like that? There ought to be a law!

Later!
Mr. Ed


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