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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:09 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8391
Location: Baltimore, MD
Mr. Ed wrote:
OMG! Charlie, you're right! I saw that show last night and didn't put the two together. Just how does an organization put time and money into retoration of a diesel locomotive (or two) just to let them deteriorate like that? There ought to be a law!


You badly misunderstand the circumstances.

PRR 5706 and 5898 were restored (albeit while retaining Amtrak-installed HEP) by the Blue Mountain & Reading RR, a private, for-profit operation. Effectively--if not outright reality--the pair, along with the steam locomotives and the passenger car fleet, were the "private playthings" of a well-to-do railroad company executive who happened to be a railfan as well.

Circumstances changed. The only place the E8s could realistically run were on the main line. and the major main lines he could access with them--Conrail, maybe SEPTA and NJ Transit with some help--eventually disallowed his fleet of Lackawanna MU's.

Now, I will concede that the locos were sold off in somewhat shady circumstances, apparently sold for "scrap" without an attempt to offer them up for rescue or purchase by an organization like the NRHS, Friends of the RR Museum of Pa., URHS of NJ, or whoever. Maybe Bennett Levin wasn't in a position to buy then, or there were some major flaws in the BM&R E8's we never heard about. If they hadn't been sold off, they'd be occupying some enginehouse stall in Port Clinton, having not been seen in two decades or so. In any case, we've lost the opportunity for two HEP-equipped, cab-signal-equipped E8's; I trust that we'll be smart enough to figure out how to keep PRR 5711/5809 away from the scrappers, in the ridiculously off-chance that Brother Levin somehow screws up.......

(Hey, don't laugh. Look what happened in George Hart's will.)


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2166
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
I seem to recall that the two PRR/AMTK E8s were each owned by a different person (at least one of them not Andy Muller, possibly no Muller ownership). BM&R "hosted" them for a while, but may not have had any ownership interest.

I sure wish I had written a lot of things down during the last 40 years....

Howard P.

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"I'm a railroad man, not a prophet."


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 44
Location: Lehighton, PA
The 5711/5809 were co-owned by three individuals associated with the BM&R and R&N, two who work/worked (not quite sure on the status of one of them) for the railroad, and one who owns the railroad.

-Micah


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8391
Location: Baltimore, MD
M.J. Kershner wrote:
The 5711/5809 were co-owned by three individuals associated with the BM&R and R&N, two who work/worked (not quite sure on the status of one of them) for the railroad, and one who owns the railroad.


Just to clarify: You really mean the 5898 and 5706, don't you? 5809 and 5711 are currently the Levin/Juniata Terminal duo, acquired from (we all thought) CSX and NS after the Conrail acquisition/breakup along with CR 4022/Erie 833 (never converted to HEP, as far as I know).


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:08 am
Posts: 44
Location: Lehighton, PA
Oh my! You've got me there. I can never keep restored pairs of PRR E8's straight in my head.. Cuz, ya know, they're a dime a dozen... All 1/3 of a dozen of them!

-Micah


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:13 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:22 am
Posts: 80
Location: Northeast Pa.
Didn't one derail and get damaged not long before they were sold?


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:17 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 746
Location: NJ
"You badly misunderstand the circumstances."

What in the world are you talking about? We have two really fine restored examples that are now nothing more than shells that are closer to being junk than running locomotives. What did I badly misunderstand?

Later!
Mr. Ed


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:38 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
In the spirit of friendly discussion, I would say, this all falls back on responsibility ( or lack thereof ), of the party that owns the particular object.... I believe it has been discussed in the past, when in private ownership, the owner has no real responsibility to preserve the item, as it is personal property... ( with the understanding ), that you would think if someone buys an object, like a locomotive, business car, caboose etc, the owner likely has an inherent passion or at least a like of the object, enough so to maintain it....

However, with that said, fortunes change, people get old, and I would suspect perhaps interests might change, leading to situations such as this.... However, unlike a museum or perhaps a for profit corporation, private ownership doesn't lend itself often to committees, grants for restorations, or the like.....I guess what I am saying is, its up to the owner to do as he chooses.... ( after all isn't there another PRR E8 in the northwest that was a dentist office until recently ) ...

I guess you can say 5706 is an adaptive reuse.... The preservation world doesn't really have to like it or agree with it... However is it much different from a train station in Pittsburgh being condo's, or a caboose becoming an ice cream store, or a Pullman sleeper in Las Vegas being a restaurant ? I tend to say no .... It is the good and bad side of using a privately owned ( or corporate owned ) object for adaptive reuse..... I suspect thousands of railroad related objects exist throughout this country ( some in good taste.... some unfortunately in bad taste ) .... After all... wasn't a FP-45 diesel painted Great Northern ( I believe thats what it was ) turned into a cottage at the Isaac Walton Inn....


Dean Levin

( photographs 23 years apart for your consideration )


Attachments:
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PRRE85706.jpg [ 44.43 KiB | Viewed 2842 times ]
SUMITONA.jpg
SUMITONA.jpg [ 43.27 KiB | Viewed 2841 times ]


Last edited by PLATFORMCAR on Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5260
Location: southeastern USA
Most ordinary citizens think nothing of purchasing a new car (which depreciates about 15-20% upon leaving the showroom) which they finance for 5 years, scrimping on maintenance, and salvaging a tiny bit of its value in exchange for the chance to start the cycle all over again within a decade. Who pays to repair a toaster, blender, or TV? This is simply a reflection of society in larger terms focussed into a smaller niche. Even shopping malls are designed to have an economic life of about 35 years, yet we use them as focii for development strategies that then linger for a century, creating problems.

This shouldn't surprise us or cause us any discomfort.

dave

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"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:27 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:04 am
Posts: 665
Location: Northeast Ohio
The discomfort comes from seeing this unit restored to original markings, in operation pulling excursion trains, and then finding that same unit gutted, stuffed and mounted and rotting away. It is not in our nature to think that preservation, even by private individuals, is so fleeting.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:44 am
Posts: 629
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Anyone who's ever shopped for a used car knows that shiny paint can cover a multitude of problems. Do we really know what mechanical condition the BM&R E-units were in when they were restored to shiny PRR colors? I'm guessing the previous owner, Amtrak, didn't lavish great care on them. If the priority of the new owners back in the '80s was a pretty locomotive over one that ran reliably maybe that's why they were no longer welcome on BM&R.

Another sad example that grieves me are the Susquehanna 'executive' E9's, 2400 and 2402, ex-BN commuter units with HEP that were shined up and painted in Pennsy-inspired colors by NYS&W in 1995. Sold as scrap to Larry's Truck & Electric in 2006, they apparently are still languishing at LTEX in Ohio. From all accounts, these units were "run hard and put away wet" and were pretty worn out by the time Susquehanna got them.

In contrast, I understand that Bennett Levin's ex-CR E-units were given good care by Conrail and the executive train service they were in couldn't have been nearly as wearing as daily commuter or passenger service for Amtrak or BN/Metra.

Lastly, it should be noted again that one of the units in question, #5898, is still operating in tourist railroad service in Missouri, which beats being used as a wedding chapel.

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David Wilkinson
KSL TV, Salt Lake City, UT


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5260
Location: southeastern USA
Stationary Steam wrote:
The discomfort comes from seeing this unit restored to original markings, in operation pulling excursion trains, and then finding that same unit gutted, stuffed and mounted and rotting away. It is not in our nature to think that preservation, even by private individuals, is so fleeting.


That's pretty much the antithesis of my experience, having both dabbled and worked in preservation for a bit more than 40 years. I've seen very few restored items that didn't need either continuous upkeep and overhaul, or crisis driven programs of massive overhaul at intervals. Of course, most of the places I've worked were not well resourced and had sketchy shelter resources at best. OTOH, I've seen a lot of marginal use-it-up-and-shove-it-aside operations..........so, this situation is unfortunately pretty much SOP from my POV.

I suppose that's one reason I'm so cynical about big dreams and foamation without a firm foundation in the real world of sustainable business as the day one consideration rather than a rationalized in afterthought. You are one of the only successful combinations I've run across. Makes sense we'd see things differently.

dave

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:24 am
Posts: 255
Location: H2O-town, CT
There's another PRR E8 (ex-5794) at the Gold Coast Railroad Museum in Miami. It is done up as FEC 1594. It was in an episode of 'Burn Notice' that I saw it and looked it up to find the info on it.

http://www.railpicturesrejects.net/1594%20Florida%20East%20Coast.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:51 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8391
Location: Baltimore, MD
Mr. Ed wrote:
"You badly misunderstand the circumstances."

What in the world are you talking about? We have two really fine restored examples that are now nothing more than shells that are closer to being junk than running locomotives. What did I badly misunderstand?


Others have elaborated, but just in case:

Your original post seemed to imply that you thought a "historical" or preservation-oriented non-profit restored the BM&R ex-PRR E8's. As explained by myself and others, they were instead private property and instead subject to whatever the owner(s) wished to do--run them hard, put them away in storage "forever" (see the ex-D&H Baldwin Sharks in Michigan for an example of that), sell them to the circus or the scrapper, donate them to a museum, set up a non-profit trust to preserve them in operation into eternity, or smash them together in a cornfield for a paying audience.

In that same sense, I actually hesitate to call certain locomotives "preserved" when in the strictest sense they're not--they're owned by a for-profit enterprise that uses them as assets. This description technically covers everything from the Disney fleet of vintage steamers in California and Florida, the Grand Canyon RR steamers, the Black River & Western 60, and the Strasburg's 31/89/90/475, to the Durango & Silverton fleet, the Mt. Washington Cog Ry. steamers (as we have seen), and even (if we apply consistent methodology here) the East Broad Top steamers--which are still owned by a scrapper's family.........


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5706 ( E8 ) and other equipment Sumiton Alabama
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
thought a few members of the forum might care to see the condition of PRR 5898, the other BM&R / PRR E8 in Jackson MO.... photo taken the other day... hard times have fallen on this pair of engines....



Dean Levin


Attachments:
JACKSON1.jpg
JACKSON1.jpg [ 35.03 KiB | Viewed 2010 times ]
JACKSON2.jpg
JACKSON2.jpg [ 33.32 KiB | Viewed 2010 times ]
JACKSON3.jpg
JACKSON3.jpg [ 66.27 KiB | Viewed 2010 times ]
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