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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3911
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
This showed up with some other things, and while it's about "modern" services, it also has historical perspectives that may go with this.

http://testplant.blogspot.com/

And adding this in, just as a cross reference.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41173


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:44 pm 

Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 am
Posts: 190
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
filmteknik wrote:
2) Saying something is beating a dead horse is basically saying a particular discussion should not be happening. As no one is forcing anyone to read this thread I take issue with anyone telling anyone not to talk about something so long as it is on topic with this board.




I, for one, don't have any problem with well-thought-out, well-reasoned technical discussions on what's possible and not. But sometimes we're forced to "call a spade a spade," and simply acknowledge that we're not going to see UP restore a Big Boy for excursions, or a GG1 hauling an Amtrak excursion



The comment concerning a UP Big Boy didn’t age well, maybe one day the GG1 comment will follow the same path. One can hope.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:46 pm 

Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 am
Posts: 190
filmteknik wrote:
Yes, other than there are getting to be a lot of stickies already. Maybe there can be an entirely separate Dead Horse forum. What else goes in there? Here's what I've got:

1) Restore or kitbash-operate a GG-1.
2) Restore and operate a Big Boy.
3) Can we scratchbuild a big time USA steam design (e.g. J3A Hudson)?
4) What's the deal with the two Baldwin Sharks?

Now truly a dead horse: What engine should replace 261?

Anything else?

:)

Steve


3/4 are happening in the year 2021, maybe the fourth will one day too ;)


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:21 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
NS6770fan wrote:
filmteknik wrote:
Yes, other than there are getting to be a lot of stickies already. Maybe there can be an entirely separate Dead Horse forum. What else goes in there? Here's what I've got:

1) Restore or kitbash-operate a GG-1.
2) Restore and operate a Big Boy.
3) Can we scratchbuild a big time USA steam design (e.g. J3A Hudson)?
4) What's the deal with the two Baldwin Sharks?

Now truly a dead horse: What engine should replace 261?

Anything else?

:)

Steve


3/4 are happening in the year 2021, maybe the fourth will one day too ;)


That just goes to show you how wrong the doom and gloomers are. 261 is far from dead as well so 4 out of 5 of those were 100% wrong and the GG1 could certainly still happen.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:38 pm 

Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 am
Posts: 190
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
NS6770fan wrote:
filmteknik wrote:
Yes, other than there are getting to be a lot of stickies already. Maybe there can be an entirely separate Dead Horse forum. What else goes in there? Here's what I've got:

1) Restore or kitbash-operate a GG-1.
2) Restore and operate a Big Boy.
3) Can we scratchbuild a big time USA steam design (e.g. J3A Hudson)?
4) What's the deal with the two Baldwin Sharks?

Now truly a dead horse: What engine should replace 261?

Anything else?

:)

Steve


3/4 are happening in the year 2021, maybe the fourth will one day too ;)


That just goes to show you how wrong the doom and gloomers are. 261 is far from dead as well so 4 out of 5 of those were 100% wrong and the GG1 could certainly still happen.



Certainly! I’ve noticed a lot of naysayers as well as ambitious folk tend to jump to conclusions, but so far most of the naysayers have been proved wrong. Not to say the ambitious guys aren’t always correct, but their energy and ideas tend to get projects started in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:47 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 1477
NS6770fan wrote:
Certainly! I’ve noticed a lot of naysayers as well as ambitious folk tend to jump to conclusions, but so far most of the naysayers have been proved wrong. Not to say the ambitious guys aren’t always correct, but their energy and ideas tend to get projects started in the first place.


I used to be one of them. I told visitors multiple times on tours that they would never see a Big Boy operate and they would never see steam on Norfolk Southern. I’m happy to be a liar about both of those and will no longer say never!!! Haha.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:10 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
NS6770fan wrote:
filmteknik wrote:
Yes, other than there are getting to be a lot of stickies already. Maybe there can be an entirely separate Dead Horse forum. What else goes in there? Here's what I've got:

1) Restore or kitbash-operate a GG-1.
2) Restore and operate a Big Boy.
3) Can we scratchbuild a big time USA steam design (e.g. J3A Hudson)?
4) What's the deal with the two Baldwin Sharks?

Now truly a dead horse: What engine should replace 261?

Anything else?

:)

Steve


3/4 are happening in the year 2021, maybe the fourth will one day too ;)


Totally acknowledge being wrong on the Big Boy.
Progress occurring on PRR T1 5550, but slow and steady.

No one's doing anything but paint, at best, on a GG1.
No update on the Sharks, unless you've heard something I haven't--and I'm patched into my wife's parents' home turf QUITE well. You can't even sneeze around those Baldwins or the others up there without folks getting "the vapors."

So, two for four if we're generous and patient?


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:48 am 

Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 am
Posts: 190
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
NS6770fan wrote:
filmteknik wrote:
Yes, other than there are getting to be a lot of stickies already. Maybe there can be an entirely separate Dead Horse forum. What else goes in there? Here's what I've got:

1) Restore or kitbash-operate a GG-1.
2) Restore and operate a Big Boy.
3) Can we scratchbuild a big time USA steam design (e.g. J3A Hudson)?
4) What's the deal with the two Baldwin Sharks?

Now truly a dead horse: What engine should replace 261?

Anything else?

:)

Steve


3/4 are happening in the year 2021, maybe the fourth will one day too ;)


Totally acknowledge being wrong on the Big Boy.
Progress occurring on PRR T1 5550, but slow and steady.

No one's doing anything but paint, at best, on a GG1.
No update on the Sharks, unless you've heard something I haven't--and I'm patched into my wife's parents' home turf QUITE well. You can't even sneeze around those Baldwins or the others up there without folks getting "the vapors."

So, two for four if we're generous and patient?


According to a trains magazine article, the two sharks are set to be donated to a museum sometime after the owner’s passing. It’s something, it’s essentially saying they will end up being saved.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:15 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
NS6770fan wrote:
According to a trains magazine article, the two sharks are set to be donated to a museum sometime after the owner’s passing. It’s something, it’s essentially saying they will end up being saved.


1) According to my UP (YooPer, not Union Pacific) sources, that was arranged for many years ago. Not new. (And somehow you're only talking about two locos, not the REALLY good stuff.)
2) You don't count chickens before they hatch. There's some reason they're not at said museum yet, and bridges are still capable of being burned. (Or roundhouses/warehouses, for that matter.) Until whatever rolling stock actually SHOW UP at said X&Y Museum, they're not "safe." (And even that's no guarantee, as we have seen too often.)

I have more faith in a positive final outcome for these Sharks (based on discussions with people I've known for decades with better "track records" for being right than some of the "celebrities" out there) than I do for an awful lot of privately owned/run equipment out there (including, say, some Reading T-1's and C&O 614, or a bunch of E8's), but I've learned the very hard way not to take anything for granted--not even a top Conrail or NS official saying "you'll never see steam back on the Horse Shoe Curve again!"


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:31 pm 

Joined: Sun May 02, 2021 1:37 pm
Posts: 1
David H. Hamley wrote:
The first image, with two cabs, was essentially what appeared in the 1944 Westinghouse Electric/BLW proposal. The accompanying text did not mention any other configurations, but did specify MU and oil fired boiler.


Do you remember if that project 2-D-D-2 had large drivers like GG1?


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: Philadelphia, PA
There are GG1's out there that can be returned to operating condition. Both SEPTA and Amtrak have the 12kV 25Hz power a restored GG1 can run on.

The motor will need a new transformer and all, repeat ALL, traces of PCB's removed.

Restoration will include new wiring and replacement of any steel that had to be removed with the PCB abatement. Repair the control equipment, possibly heat treat the frames. Train the engineers on the brake schedule and reintroduce the concepts of power braking and baling off the motor brakes. Cab signals will need restored and ACSES added.

OK? OK.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Then get Amtrak or whoever to accept the cracked frames for high-speed/power operation.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT.

What is this "heat treating" you have conjured up?

You could hypothetically get one to move on a railroad with the right overhead that WANTS to run a GG1 at whatever low speed.
Don't count on Amtrak, NJT, or SEPTA to be that railroad.


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Wed May 05, 2021 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:45 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4642
Location: Maine
There was an extensive article in "The Keystone" by someone who actually knows something about the subject, on why a GG1 is unable to run again - period.
Before attempting that impossibility, I'd like to see 4876 stabilized or restored and the two sitting in the New York woods removed and conserved.

And yes, I know at least one of the usual suspects will say, "We have X number in reasonable condition, why save those three?"

_________________
"It's only impossible until it's done." -Nelson Mandela


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:41 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: Chicago USA
Do you recall which magazine issue? Perhaps you could summarize. I presume the major issue is the cracking of the super truck (as I call them) frames. Didn't all the extant G's travel on their own wheels to where they are now?

That might be good enough for slow speed operation in the unlikely event that IRM decided to operate theirs on 600VDC (Pick out the best 4 motors out of 12 and stuff trolley car apparatus inside).

I'm curious what the expert has to say about dismantling the super trucks, do some serious welding and then heat treating as needed.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 & Other Electrics
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:52 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11481
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
filmteknik wrote:
Do you recall which magazine issue? Perhaps you could summarize. I presume the major issue is the cracking of the super truck (as I call them) frames.


The magazine is the publication of the PRR Technical & Historical Society. I don't know which issue, but they're a bit harder to come by than, say, a back issue of Trains. The PRRT&HS is not exactly noted for being "customer-friendly" among researchers.

The more pertinent question:
Even if someone actually reposted the entire article here or somewhere else, would you actually accept the premises stated, by professionals who make a living knowing about this stuff?

I've heard museum pros and other experts refer to trying to dissuade repeatedly insistent "foamers" of their restoration-to-operation dreams as an "exorcism"--because the idea and determination literally "possesses" the foamers in question.

It appears the idea of "running a GG1 again" is somewhere at the top of said list of delusional dreams, now that UP kindly took the other top contender off their list. And when we get to entertaining the idea of taking over a section of railroad that actually has/had PRR catenary and doing the extensive cat rehab JUST to potentially run a G................

Quote:
Didn't all the extant G's travel on their own wheels to where they are now?


"That was then, this is now."
I have, in the past several years, had two railroad officials on two major railroads, both of whom were keenly aware of exactly what I/we were asking, explicitly reject the proposition of moving a GG1 over their tracks. One straightforwardly said of the one past movement, "That was a one-time-only move to what was supposed to be its 'forever' home!" There is another member of this forum who can confirm another similar request being rejected.
I suspect that both rejections were tied more into the issue of avoiding problems with "non-standard" shipments way out of "compliance" in many ways than anything to do with the frames, and during the Washington Union Terminal centennial, Amtrak officials who made a similar rejection--including the official in charge of all special movements on the Corridor--were expressly overruled by top management and told "make it happen!"

And I'm not even going to discuss the incredible expense of the proposed annealing "oven" as formerly used by Wilmington Shops--I believed that has been discussed in past dead-horse-beating sessions here.


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