Fire up and shut down and pressure variations when running all can make mysterious things happen. No one (I don't think) mentioned furnace bearers and waist sheet, but they can play an important role.
To be on the safe side, I'm blaming it on George W. Bush.

As I was reading through the posts, I had been wondering if the manner in which the boiler firebox is supported to the frame is in some way putting mechanical stresses on the boiler that have nothing to do with rapid cycling, materials of construction or boiler design flaws? The last post mentioned furnace bearers, so we have the same querry?

It has been brought to my attention that I have mistakenly noted the 515/516 series of materials as 516/517. The reality is I should have typed SA 515-70 or SA 516-70.

I wish to thank the good gentleman that took the time to call and point out my error.

It is always my goal to present everything as accurately as possible, I am not beyond the minor correction here and there.

Thank you,

ROTFLOL!

I thought the violent and overheated rhetoric was the cause... will we ever target, er... pinpoint, um... isolate, ah... identify the real cause?

Global warm...er...I mean climate change!

Nah - it's all those concrete ties!

A conspiracy between GM, GE, Firestone, Goodyear, and Standard Oil?

More like a conspiracy between British Leyland, English Electric, Dunlop, Avon and British Petroleum...

Seriously, does anyone know about the operating practices for Tornado? Did they do rapid fire-ups?

I would think they did fireups and shutdowns pretty well correctly since there are plenty of experienced folks involved in operations over there.
It's like anything else that's new, gotta shake the bugs out.
Knowing German engineering, I would suspect that they did a good job building the boiler.
Best course for us to take is quit speculating and wait and see what comes out.

I am curious how these issues relate to the problems reportedly found on the 3801 boiler. It was built at about the same time using the same materials as the Tornado boiler in the same factory. The biggest difference, I beleive is that it hasn't been steamed yet.

If these problems are the same (I don't know IF they are similar) that would rule out operation issues.

Are any of you familiar with the 3801 boiler and what has our Aussie friends stirred up?

Thank you John for your always well thought out responses. Long I have spoken of superior European boiler materials available (superheater flues for one) and wondered about the logistics of getting them over here. Good to know you are working on it.

My biggest question (regardless of furnace bearer design) is in regards to the frame/engine bed. Since the boiler (as we all know) is an important structural member of the machine, I can't help but wonder if to much load is being placed on the boiler due to insufficient rigidity of the frame. Just a thought, in what other way can the mudrings/troughs see stresses great enough to incur cracks in steel of that cross section?

One would not think that the boiler is being pushed to hard in relation to firing practices but anything is possible. Do we know who the operators are? Look at the way it works in this country...group A gets a locomotive running and refuses any operational guidance from groups B-N. Why do they refuse? Because a few of there people have been in the cab of an operational locomotive as a cab rider, they then go on to low water it on the main line....Others get by on luck and sufficient life remaining in the machine. My point is that we cannot know if operational practices are a possibility or not and thus to say they could be is a fair and valid statement.

Cheers, Jason

As I understand it, copper was well liked as a material for early fireboxes due to its conductance and ability to "take up" when warmed. Kuprodur, an alloy from copper (98.8%), nickel (0.7%), silicon (0.4%) and iron (0.1%), is more withstanding against burning than copper and is stronger. It is discussed in the Tross papers Matt Austin references. It was common during and after the First World War to use brazing metals for repairs due to copper shortages. "This shortage led to the use of steel fireboxes which were not flexible enough and soon tears and leakages formed" [sic].

paraphrased from Die Dampflokomotive Transpress 1965 pp 112-113.

Most UK locomotives and the Tornado uses a plate frame. I wonder if the plate frame was changed or analyzed stucturally to account for the different boiler design.
As to firing practice in the UK I have observed that it is quite common to leave the firebox door open when sitting and running to clear up smoke. When I ask about this I was told it was almost standard and because of the baffle fitted to the top part ot the firedoor hole it directed the cold air downwards and this method did not hurt the firebox! This practice in the US is considered very poor and harms the firebox.
I toured the shops at Meningen last year when the boiler was under construction for the 3801 and the welding,fit ups and flanging looked very high quality. On the subject of Thermial stress relieving the boilers when finished, I asked the sales manager and did not recieve a good answer so I do not know if they do that their.But over 10,000 Chinese all welded boilers were constructed without this procress and they have proformed well.