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 Post subject: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:09 pm 

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:22 am
Posts: 428
I am working on scanning the Northern Pacific Railway Authorization for Expenditure (AFE) records for the Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association website.

http://www.nprha.org/Lists/NP%20AFEs/AllItems.aspx

I recently ran across a AFE where the NP in 1913 was exchanging all of their #5 E&T air brake equipment for #6 E&T air brake equipment, what I found interesting was that Westinghouse was doing unit exchanges for $11 plus shipping.

I don't know anything about #5, but I am trying to understand the who, what, why of this process.

Why was Westinghouse giving NP Ry such a good deal on the exchange?

Were they re-manufacturing the #5 into #6?

-Hudson


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
This rather sounds like the H vs. K freight triple valve during the same era. There are, as far as I know, no examples of H equipment in preservation, because Westinghouse had a retrofit kit to convert them to the newer K type. I am, unfortunately, not aware what the financial situation was for doing so.

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Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 130
NSRM runs "H" valves on its equipment. We also have the reworked "H" to "K" with the factory tag identifying them as such.

CCdW


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
Which cars still have H? Any idea why they missed conversion?

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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:36 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 130
V&T Coach #8
V&T Coach#10
V&T Box car # 1015
V&T Flat cars #53, 57, and 162

They were removed from service early on or they never went to interchange and by the time the movie companies got them they were antiques and oddities. Several other cars that went to the movie companies did, however, get an up-grade.

"H" works for us where we never go very fast, don't have long trains (3 or 4 cars), and don't have long grades.

CCdW


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:38 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Arizona
All the passenger cars at Roaring Camp had H triples when I worked there years ago. they were built using hardware from SP narrow gauge equipment.

On the narrow gauge in CO there were many H valves that had been converted to K's.

For those who are wondering, the main difference between an H and a K is the K has the added feature of retarded release and recharge to slow the release and recharge rate down when the cars were on the head end of longer freight trains.

If anyone knows the difference between #5 and #6 ET air, I'd like to know...


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
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The big difference is the number of parts. The 6 was a redesign of systems. There was a converted H valve in the pile at the Nevada Northern.

Robby Peartree


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:02 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 384
Quote:
If anyone knows the difference between #5 and #6 ET air, I'd like to know...


Cass shay #5 dates from 1905 and has steam loco brakes, no independent air brake.

I noticed the automatic valve does not have a "holding" notch. The positions for the 6ET are, from left to right: Release, Run, Holding, Lap, Service, Emergency.

Kelly Anderson was with me at the time, and I think he stated it was an #5?? (Paging Kelly.....help?) (Earl??)


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:32 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:06 am
Posts: 465
Location: NE PA
The #6 distributing valve added a feature to maintain the pressure to the locomotive and tender brake cylinders, to prevent them from releasing if the leather packing cups leaked.

Mike Tillger


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:40 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Strasburg, PA
Mark Jordan wrote:
Kelly Anderson was with me at the time, and I think he stated it was an #5?? (Paging Kelly.....help?) (Earl??)

You must be thinking of someone else. I wouldn't know a #5 brake if I ran away down the mountain with one.

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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:28 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Arizona
Cass 5 has a G6 valve. There are no air brakes on the locomotive, only that gawdawful steam brake.

G6 was part of the earlier A-1 system which used a triple valve on the engine and tender to set the brakes. As an option you could install a straight air valve for the independent brakes. As such there is no need nor any provision for holding the locomotive's brakes when the automatic air is released.


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:46 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Here is some period technical information on both 5-ET and 6-ET:

http://archive.org/stream/westinghouseairb00inte#page/n3/mode/2up

The section on 5-ET starts on page 129, followed by the section on 6-ET. I gave it a quick scan, and don't see anything about converting the older system, but a close reading may turn up more info.

One thing that surprises me is in the tables of the actual schedules (lists of components) in the beginning of the book, 5-ET is absent; they include schedules only for A-1, AD. AG, and 6-ET. This leads me to wonder if 5-ET was a transitional development, quickly superseded by 6-ET.

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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
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Location: Southern California
I recall being told that the 5-ET was only sold for a year or two. It was soon superseded with the 6-ET.

Years ago I was on a road trip with my good friend who was quite into air brake stuff. We stopped some place- I think - in northern Idaho to check on a park locomotive and he was quite surprised to find that it was equipped with #5! I think he had never thought that he would see one "in the flesh."

----
Somehow some of the early posters in this thread drifted to commenting about triple valves instead of locomotive brake schedues.

The H-triple valves could be easily upgraded to be K-triple valves. The K-triple body had a cast triangle wing to indicate the difference; a converted valve had a sheet metal wing screwed onto the body to indicate the conversion.

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Brian Norden


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:44 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 130
Regarding Earl's post: That is correct only if you also install the double check. Locomotive #25 has this option which is controlled by several valves located below the running boards. There is also a mountain valve accessible to the crew mounted on the tender and a foot bail in the cab to selectively bail the driver brakes when in automatic mode. A complex yet satisfying system.

CCdW


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 Post subject: Re: Westinghouse #5 E&T Locomotive Air Brakes
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:33 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Brian Norden wrote:

----
Somehow some of the early posters in this thread drifted to commenting about triple valves instead of locomotive brake schedues.

The H-triple valves could be easily upgraded to be K-triple valves. The K-triple body had a cast triangle wing to indicate the difference; a converted valve had a sheet metal wing screwed onto the body to indicate the conversion.


Because the original question was if Westinghouse was taking in 5-ET equipment and re-manufacturing it into 6-ET... and that sounds exactly like what was happening with H freight triples at about the same time. The only question with the H triples is whether the railroads were doing the work, or sending the valves back to Westinghouse for rebuilding. So far, neither question has been answered.

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