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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:15 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2164
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
I'll stick my neck out here (wow, how unusual...) and ask the question at the top of everyone's list:

How much?

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:47 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:45 am
Posts: 1090
Location: Beaumont, Texas
Judging from the video and others I have seen of over-the-road generator moves; they use the same rig.

I am sorry for those I offended; perhaps a better conclusion to make is that this rig must be competitive with rail for moving large loads? Besides escort services; notice the trusses they had to lay down to reinforce every bridge they passed over; however, moving by rail will entail either a spur being constucted, or a transfer to a trailer. A cost comparison between this rig and moving by rail would be interesting.

Several years ago, three large package boilers were shipped to the plant I used to work at. All three came in by rail on special flatcars; a pair of cranes transferred them to a trailer (with something like 24 or 36 wheels on it) for the short journey from the track to the pads they were set on.

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:03 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:48 am
Posts: 21
Howard P. wrote:
I'll stick my neck out here (wow, how unusual...) and ask the question at the top of everyone's list:

How much?

Howard P.


Cost was close to 30K. It was a situation where we were faced with a short time frame to move the locomotive and working with a overloaded plate on the home ranch. This method was elected as the fastest with everything we had going on at that time. The locomotive arrived 100% complete. Nothing was removed or modified to facilitate the move. I worked closely with the riggers on where to lift and where to secure the load. The locomotive was set on our rails without a scratch. The locomotive was run under its own power "into" the rig and set for lifting. The process was reversed upon arrival at our railroad.

We had looked into the option of lifting the locomotive off it trucks to get the weight to a more acceptable number to get it over the road. We would have also had to remove the fuel tank in order to get the locomotive to sit "comfortably" on a flat bed rig. All of which would require cranes and mobilization of a crew to break it down, then reverse the process once home.

After weighing all the options, available man power, deadlines, etc. - at the end of the day, the costs were not that large of spread between the options.

Michael Manwiller
Heber Valley Railroad


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:13 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
I can tell you from experience that when railroads are approached by paying customers with dimensional loads requiring special handling, they are more than happy to accommodate and even go waaayyyyyy out of their way to make the move happen. It is one of the few things they still do well when it comes to being a common carrier.

Move CN 5288 from Steamtown to Chattanooga and asking for special pricing or a special train move? Yeah, then you're on the begging on your knees end of things. Move a dimensional load from Steamtown to Chattanooga and the NS and CP mechanical departments, customer service personnel, and transportation employees all work to accommodate your needs to the last "is there anything else we can do for you?"

The old sayin' goes that the man that does the payin' does the sayin'. When you are a legitimate customer, they work for you.

When Mark Ray took on the project to move the 5288, I took the responsibility of handling all of the logistics planning including arranging the special flat needed and dealing with the three railroads involved. Although special train service was considered, we eventually came to the conclusion that being a customer in the driver's seat was much better than begging for the necessary permissions and spending the amount of time and money necessary for an 800 mile rail move that could very well have been a major pain for everyone should there have been some sort of mechanical failure enroute.

Mike

Dreaming of green and gold passenger engines...


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:23 am
Posts: 436
Location: Strasburg, PA
Michael Manwiller wrote:
Howard P. wrote:
I'll stick my neck out here (wow, how unusual...) and ask the question at the top of everyone's list:

How much?

Howard P.


Cost was close to 30K ...

Michael Manwiller
Heber Valley Railroad


Then I'd say you did very well, Mr. Manwiller.

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:48 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2069
Howard P. wrote:
Why does CSX need publicity from moving a steam locomotive? Will it earn them any more revenue? I suggest you review the events of last spring at Cumberland, MD, involving a 10-mile move for a steam locomotive with no disconnected sidings in the mix.

They need to "wake up"? Really, now. They seem to be doing just fine, running their business without advice from the likes of railfans. What they need to do is please stockholders and especially institutional investors.

"move it under its own power"...that option is even less likely than a dead-in-tow, especially for a locomotive that needs the full Part 230 work. The railroads have made that abundantly clear, especially CSX. NS is to be commended for the move of C&O 614 recently, and for working with the new owner of NKP 763 a year or so ago.

Howard P.


CSX's turn.

If it was the owner's plan to get it to running condition, finish it. Best for its preservation anyways, running or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:39 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:38 pm
Posts: 527
Location: New Jersey, Central
Guys, All I'm asking is could this rig be adapted with railroad wheels and moved on the tracks? Like Mr. Manwiller stated, " The locomotive arrived 100% complete. Nothing was removed or modified to facilitate the move. "Yes, there would be cost, railroads are in the business of making money, But you would not have to take the engines apart and if the engines are able to be on an connected spur no cranes required.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
With what engineering knowledge I have:

You could get a rig like that set up on railroad rails.

But the other question is whether such a rig, loaded, could 1) fit down the right-of-way without dismantling signals, bridges, etc., and 2) whether such a rail rig could take any kind of curve without toppling over. It's a delicate enough mechanical "dance" when you have two lanes of roadway with which to work; I don't even want to think about a five-foot-wide "footprint."


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:38 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:06 am
Posts: 465
Location: NE PA
Complex answer-yes, something like that can be constructed, but would not be cost effective, as there simply is not enough applications to warrant the design cost let alone the cost of construction. Biggest problem is the narrow support system (track gauge) as Alexander pointed out, you have to design with in the laws of physics.
Mike Tillger


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:38 am 
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Posts: 1377
And just a little problem with meeting all the CFR and FRA requirements.....

PC

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:48 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Afboone wrote:
Guys, All I'm asking is could this rig be adapted with railroad wheels and moved on the tracks? Like Mr. Manwiller stated, " The locomotive arrived 100% complete. Nothing was removed or modified to facilitate the move. "Yes, there would be cost, railroads are in the business of making money, But you would not have to take the engines apart and if the engines are able to be on an connected spur no cranes required.


No. Highway clearances have improved to the point that 14' wide oversize loads are easy to permit, and I'm sure, to pass the support beams by the 10' wide load, the rig is very close to 14' wide.

Railroad overhead clearance have improved dramatically over the past couple decades, thanks to double stacks, but side clearances have remained pretty static, and 14' wide is going to be an impossible load, unless you build in the capability to offset the load sideways, like a Schnable car does. The key to moving rail artifacts bis rail is to take advantage of that increased height, and put the support under the object. That's why the T-1 that went out west the other year went on a flatcar.

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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:38 pm
Posts: 527
Location: New Jersey, Central
Howard P. sent me the link the Schnable car. That's what I'm talking about. You would just need to support the engine under her frame and no need to take the engine apart or cranes. Thanks everyone for keeping this civil and on topic.
Just throwing ideas out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Just an idea for moving a steam locomotive
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2091
Location: Northern Illinois
Parts on a flatcar (was the T-1 even disassembled into "parts"?) go as regular freight. Schnable cars are special moves, requiring their own train crew, various officials, and the crew to man the Schnable car... for as many days as a day-light only, 20MPH move takes. Would you rather pay for this, or a pair of cranes at each end, which you can find in the Yellow Pages?

I watched one of these special moves tie up on the switching lead behind the shop a couple years ago... mid-day, pulled off the UP transcon main to let traffic pass, and from the number of paid people standing around with their fingers up their b*tts, I'd rather pay for the cranes.

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