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 Post subject: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:30 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2090
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
This is relevant to preservation because many of us have similar power cars at the front of our trains. Can a similar accident happen on preserved railways today? What protections should be in place for power sources and fuel supplies?

The recent South Africa accident appears to be primarily a fire accident. It appears the head end power car on the train was the main source of fire. Does the size of the fire seem normal for a diesel powered head end power source? It seems almost like the head end power car was gasoline or LPG powered instead of diesel.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:38 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Article, since almost no one in the North American media is discussing it:

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/04/africa/so ... index.html


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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:45 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1080
Location: Back in NE Ohio
The severity of the crash may have more to do with the fact that the RofSA's railway gauge is, I believe the "Cape Gauge" of 42 inches, and their equipment is smaller and lighter than our typical standard gauge equipment. When I heard about this, I was remembering accidents where a truck managed to derail a full-sized passenger train (like Amtrak) in this country, and it usually takes something like a low-boy with a big transformer on it, or a cement mixer, or a fully loaded fire engine pumper (the late 1980's Crescent wreck comes to mind). Even those kinds of collisions in this country come nowhere near the carnage of this accident.


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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
Stuff out of South Africa rarely makes the news here even for RR subjects.
Heck, I just heard there was a huge derailment of a 4-8-2 in 2017 on a line where someone had stolen a great deal of the rails (on concrete ties) on the line between Pretoria and Cullinan. Another of the same class was damaged exactly the same way in 2008.
https://youtu.be/Om5xOp108DY

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Nobody seems to be talking about this much in North America, or if they are it's only in hushed tones in back rooms.

The political turmoil and racial (read: anti-white) strife in South Africa appears headed the way of Zimbabwe, the "Democratic" Republic of Congo, Somalia, and other third-world "hellholes" all too rapidly.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=12003693

https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.co ... babwe.html

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... an-farmers

https://www.dailywire.com/news/28556/mo ... -paul-bois

I have been quietly monitoring the efforts in South African preservation to stay ahead of wanton vandalism, scrap theft, burglary, corruption, and the like. Sadly, it appears to be a losing battle in some corners.

I firmly predict that, should matters continue on the path they have been for the past couple years, that in a few years' time we will be discussing the plight of what few rail artifacts remains in South Africa the way we search in vain for the now-scrapped sugar cane hauler survivors in Cuba, and that the Class 26 "Red Devil," the Beyer-Garratts, and much of SAR preservation, will be ruins much like Porta's experimental 4-8-0 Argentina loco.

I hope I'm wrong. But I wouldn't wager on it.


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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 119
Location: San Jose, CA
South Africa is going down the effing tubes, and has been for years. See this article from 2010"
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/20 ... by-thieves

Read this and weep:
https://www.camdenmin.co.uk/products/the-steel-kyalami


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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:15 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2090
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Things are complicated but changing in South Africa. They just pushed out a president accused of corruption and brought in a new power structure. I will have to ask my colleague from South Africa.

The New York Times has coverage, including this set of citizen inteviews:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/world/africa/south-africa-ramaphosa-zuma.html

But....what about my original questions about the head end power system and its fuel type?

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
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Location: South Carolina
On a more positive note, photos posted to Facebook last week showed 4-8-4 #3450, better known as the Red Devil, being moved from its storage location for overhaul/restoration.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 230
Location: Lancaster, PA
Hugh,

Per your comment, was the Facebook post dated some time ago? I thought the RD was moved from the basement of Monumemt Station in Capetown to Ceres Rail at lest a year or more ago for restoration. Since then I heard nothing, Ceres seems mute about it except that it's on their roster.

If the country is in that much turmoil, how does any tour company survive?

Sincerely,

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:11 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1170
Location: South Carolina
Randy Musselman wrote:
Hugh,

Per your comment, was the Facebook post dated some time ago? I thought the RD was moved from the basement of Monumemt Station in Capetown to Ceres Rail at lest a year or more ago for restoration. Since then I heard nothing, Ceres seems mute about it except that it's on their roster.

If the country is in that much turmoil, how does any tour company survive?

Sincerely,

Randy


Randy,

There were several posts about the Red Devil move made by different people last week. One is on the Friends of the Rail FB Page dated Tuesday, March 20th and features several photos and a short video of the engine being moved. I’ll see if I can find out any more details tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1170
Location: South Carolina
Here's one of several videos posted last week showing the move of #3450 to Worcester, SA for restoration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVAvMUaSrYU

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:39 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2090
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
It it not my desire to focus on political topics, but I feel this topic should be closed with an update and clarification of some of information presented earlier. It is also useful to reflect that the criminal challenges to preservation in South Africa are not so different from problems in our home countries.

I spoke to my office colleague who is a white South African. The news items describing Australia's offer of refugee status to South African white farmers are actually quite offensive to South Africans and the motivating story has strong racial factors. A conditional apology has been offered by Australia, but the apology is not absolute and reflects Australia's own racial conflicts in immigration policy. The apology is reported in the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/03/world/australia/south-africa-white-farmers.html

My colleague says that there are significant factions of rural white farm owners who still seek to secede from South Africa and return to an apartheid culture. This obviously creates some tension and violence. This is a continuation of the cultural factors behind the Boer wars. One can find similar tensions in U.S. history, such as the "Bleeding Kansas" conflicts of the 1850's and the western conflicts between farmers and ranchers. Some of you may share with me the grade school assignment of reading the novel "Shane" which describes this conflict.

Bringing this back to preservation issues, South Africa does have problems with vandalism and theft, but put this in perspective with our own countries. Metal theft is a major issue in the USA, UK, and my Denmark. There is of course the theft of metals from abandoned properties in places like Detroit. Then there is the recent news item about metals theft from Western Maryland Scenic Railroad.

In Europe, we regularly have problems with cable theft from trackside signal systems. I know this specifically for the UK, Norway, and Denmark. As a result, many systems are converting copper cables to cheaper aluminum cables.

https://www.tu.no/artikler/jernbaneverket-byttet-ut-kobberkabler-for-a-hindre-tyveri/234904

We, at the Nordsjællands Veterantog, have regular problems with metal theft. We have had stolen brake shoes and whole wheel sets. A set of 8-10 spoked wheelsets were stolen from one of our remote storage locations in Fredensborg about 3 years ago. We now have a member who for personal reasons likes to stay in our workshop kitchen all night and use the wifi. He is now effectively a night watchman and our theft at this location is nearly zero.

Taken in isolation various news items can make a remote place seem very "foreign", but our various nations actually have much more in common than we appreciate.

I still don't know if the head end power in this train accident uses gasoline or diesel as fuel. From the fire, I suspect it was gasoline.

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Danmarks Tekniske Universitet
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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:45 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:55 am
Posts: 93
softwerkslex wrote:
It it not my desire to focus on political topics, but I feel this topic should be closed with an update and clarification of some of information presented earlier.


Ummm..so you want it being closed for political off-topic, but right before that you tell us your personal political opinion...

Quote:
Bringing this back to preservation issues, South Africa does have problems with vandalism and theft, but put this in perspective with our own countries. Metal theft is a major issue in the USA, UK, and my Denmark.

In Europe, we regularly have problems with cable theft from trackside signal systems. I know this specifically for the UK, Norway, and Denmark.


I can confirm these thefts exist. BUT: Is it really Jan or Bjoern typically robbing railways for metal in Denmark?

This is an important issue, for as long as some media and officials in some countries supress public information about suspects for political correctness, the perpetrators have a higher chance of not being caught and so stealing the next wheelset in Denmark. No European museum railway had to guard their equipment at night in the 1980's, but now they obviously have to.

However, I wouldn't be suprised if the white danish farmers were to blame..

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: South Africa Railway Accident Jan 2018
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:10 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2090
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
In response to the previous post, I don't believe that the default assumption, without data, should be that crime is committed by non-white persons. Further, the information I provided comes from my own daily life in Denmark and my colleague who regularly returns to his family in South Africa, and the information can also be verified from multiple information sources, so I do not consider it "opinion". It is not my "opinion" that Australia retracted its statement about white South African farmers. It actually happened.

Oh, about "no European museum had to guard their equipment in the 1980's". That is just plain false. First of all, let's just say it is a little unclear how we came into possession of a large portion of our inventory of steam parts. Secondly, the dome on DSB 582 is not original. The original combined sand/steam dome was stolen for scrap metal after the engine was preserved...in the 1980s.

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Danmarks Tekniske Universitet
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