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 Post subject: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:56 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:58 pm
Posts: 5
Over twenty years ago, a group of us developed new paint schemes for the replica Golden Spike locomotives Jupiter and 119 at Promontory Summit. A lot of information has come to light since then, and its time to update the engines to reflect current knowledge.

Our goal is develop new reconstructions in the coming year. This will give the GSNHS an opportunity to implement any changes in time for the 150th anniversary of the Golden Spike ceremony in 2019.

As much as we've learned in twenty years, there are still some fundamental gaps. We'd be very appreciative if any RYPN members can assist. We are looking for any help with the following:

*Schenectady Specification Books - this would be for 1868, and include the Central Pacific Jupiter No. 60, as well as others. For a company as large as Schenectady / ALCO, we're hoping this survives.

*Schenectady Paint Books - these were usually kept in the painters' shop and recorded the lettering and numbering to go on a given engine, along with occasional color notes. The Baldwin book for the 1860s survives, and we know that Rogers also kept one. If Schenectady had one, it would be a tremendous help.

*Newspaper accounts of Schenectady locomotives - especially their colors or descriptions, c. 1860-70. Did any of the sister Schenectady engines sent to the Adirondack, Renssalaer & Saratoga, Chicago & Alton, Flint & Perre Marquette, Union Pacific or others merit description in the papers? This would be very useful.

*Schenectady lithographs - we know of only one in color, of a Hudson River Railroad passenger engine. Unfortunately, its from a black and white photograph of the original made around 1913. Did the original lithograph survive?

*Schenectady photos - we are looking for high quality photographs of Schenectady engines that can reveal details of the striping, finish and so forth. We are especially looking for a good version of the ten wheel engine "Bison."

We are familiar with the Halsey drawings in the DeGolyer library, along with the Russell photos in the Oakland Museum.

Many thanks in advance.

The W.P.E.


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
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Both locomotives and tenders were repainted in 2015, using the most up-to-date
information available up to 2015.

So, what's wrong with them now?


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:18 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:58 pm
Posts: 5
Thanks for replying.

Its just a progression as we learn more over the years. There are substantial changes to be made for Jupiter, and smaller, spot changes for the 119.

The Jupiter is a challenge. We know from a contemporary reporter's description the engine was "gleaming in blue and crimson with gold" when it first appeared on the Sacramento waterfront for steam tests in 1869. But the arrangement and color match used by Schenectady in the 1860s is not known.

Reference to other blue and crimson engines from the same era indicate the blue was a very dark, deep ultramarine blue. The reporter's term "crimson" - at least in 1860s Sacramento - usually referred to a blood red. We also know that blue and crimson engines depicted in the Halsey drawings at DeGolyer among other sources usually had a third color mixed in, such as dark wine or Indian red, usually on the engine frame.

Where the colors were used is an important question. Most sources show dark blue tanks with red panels. Some contemporary drawings of blue and red engines running out of upstate New York include red pilots, wheels and other fittings, while an amateur drawing of another upstate New Yorker, in the style of the New York Central's Rochester or Albany shops and named "Stentor," shows dark blue wheels with a wine pilot and trucks.

Apart from the colors, there are many details on Jupiter itself that have only come to light, primarily through the digitization of Andrew J Russell photographs at the Oakland Museum. One of these details is the presence of a broad panel stripe on the Jupiter's tender, just outside of the name panel. Its in a dark color that makes it virtually invisible, but it shows in photographs of Jupiter as well as many other Schenectady engines of the same era, confirming it as a standard Schenectady feature.

Another, very interesting possibility is a varnished or painted and grained cab for Jupiter. Grained cabs appear to be very common on late 1860s Schenectadys, and the cab of Jupiter in a Russell photo taken at Promontory appears to show what might be wood grain. The moderator of this site feels it may be painted and grained faux wood, probably in a ash-and-walnut imitation which was common to the time and appropriate to the Renaissance Revival form of the Schenectady cab.

This would be very different from what we thought in 1994, but the point is to represent the engine as accurately as possible, and anything is up for changes if the evidence leads there.

Compared to Jupiter, the Rogers prototype UP 119 is very simple. Surviving Rogers specification sheets in the Moshein collection include a great deal of color data, enabling us to confirm that the 119 was indeed wine red, and had vermillion wheels. The main work will be changing the color placement of the panels on the tender - Rogers painted the central number medallion red, while the elongated side panels were either green or ultramarine blue. The 119 is a "medium finish" engine, which makes green more likely. Blue was generally reserved for better finish engines, with turned iron bell stands, at least in the Rogers factory.


Last edited by WPE on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:42 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 822
Who is "we?"


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:37 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 637
Dear WPE

Twenty + years ago I was contacted about the paint on EP&SW #1 (Built 1857) involving this very subject. Since that time Mr. Conrad has done his restoration and wrote his report. Have you and your team consulted that report?


Robby Peartree


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:58 pm
Posts: 5
Hi Robby,

Thanks for your response - the Spring Green is a handsome engine and it would be great to see that report. Jack White told me some very interesting colors were found in the cab. Breese engines in the late eighteen-fifties it must have been an impressive sight.

Right now our focus is on Jupiter and the Schenectady Locomotive Works. As you know, early locomotive builders developed individual styles, that distinguished their products from their rivals. Schenectady had an excellent mechanical platform designed by Walter McQueen as well as several specific trademark details. It makes sense their their paintwork was equally specific and we want to know how.

Do you or anyone on this board know where the specification sheets might be? Or any of the other things?



Cheers and thanks


Last edited by WPE on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:17 pm
Posts: 521
Location: Scranton, PA
Yes, I too am interested in who the "WPE" is/are

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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:21 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:58 pm
Posts: 5
Hey Jeff,

The WPE is made up of railroad specialists, restorers, a curator or two, some pots and pans, and a stray mongoose.

We are rarely seen in public, but when it comes to Jupiter, Paris is worth a mass.


Last edited by WPE on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Posts: 147
Location: Utah
I am closely involved with the head ranger, the facility manager and both engineers at Promontory and while I know plenty about redoing the Jupiter's pony truck I have heard nothing of paint updates.

While I am for accurate paint for the locomotives, I await official word from the Park Service.

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Josh B.
The official D&RGW 223 website


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:16 am
Posts: 637
WPE

I do not have a copy of the report handy. Perhaps Mr. Conrad will chime in. Unfortunately due to my employment at GCR at the time I did not get involved with the actual restoration at Southwestern Crane and Rigging. I was surprised at the number of colors that came out of the work. I understand that EP&SW#1 is painted in colors that it retired in. As a nearly complete survivor of the Civil War era it amazes me how few know about it.

To Mr.Lisowski,

We have other people that hide behind names why just call out WPE? In my opinion there are others that have behaved far worse than WPE has thus far but nothing has been done with them. Will there be a policy change at RYPN, are we seeing special treatment for certain people who do not deserve it, or is this just a quirk for this situation? I only ask this question in public since it was brought up in public.

Robby Peartree


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:18 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:15 pm
Posts: 1359
Location: Henderson Nevada
Your moderators know the identity of WPE... Like many here he has chosen to mask his identity... (some do this to avoid conflicts at work, some to preserve privacy) Like a few of those, he has contacted your moderators and identified himself. As Mr Peartree suggested, please accept his identity as offered..

By chance one of your moderators is one of his occasional band of
Quote:
railroad specialists, restorers, a curator or two, some pots and pans, and a stray mongoose.
Personally I am pleased to find out that what I though was an oversize ferret is actually a mongoose... Rattle snakes should not be an issue at the work site...

Randy

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Randy Hees
Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City, Nevada
http://museums.nevadaculture.org/nsrmbc
http://www.nevadasouthern.com/
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfNevadaSouthernRailway


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Posts: 147
Location: Utah
Robby Peartree wrote:
WPE

We have other people that hide behind names why just call out WPE? In my opinion there are others that have behaved far worse than WPE has thus far but nothing has been done with them. Will there be a policy change at RYPN, are we seeing special treatment for certain people who do not deserve it, or is this just a quirk for this situation? I only ask this question in public since it was brought up in public.

Robby Peartree


I don't know if anybody is singling him our or threatening him. I think all of us who are not familiar with this gentleman were intrigued as to who could hold such academic prestige so as to not only know so much about mid-19th century locomotive paint but to also present that information to the National Park Service for them to alter already existing NPS property according to said plan.

I don't know if the NPS has been in on the discussion of this research. As I wrote, I have not heard anything about it from the officials at Promontory so either they are keeping it under cover for the time being or it has not been presented to them as of yet.

If I am not mistaken, unless this research has previously been presented, I doubt the higher-up Park Service officials will approve a complete repaint of both locomotives only three years after just doing so. Golden Spike NHS is one of the lower-priority parks and budget concerns are often an issue.

Also it should be noted that what I write here is completely unofficial since, while I am good friends with the before-mentioned employees of the site, I do not have the internal perspective that being an employee would offer.

That being said, I am exceptionally interested in the research since I have dedicated much of my free time to researching the Utah portions of the Transcontinental Railroad, including the two locomotives. I only recently began publishing it to the web at http://www.adventuresinsteam.blogspot.com. One of my current projects is an essay on the colors of Victorian industry with a heavy emphasis on locomotives and textiles.

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Josh B.
The official D&RGW 223 website


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:18 am
Posts: 264
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Golden Spike replicas have only been painted twice - once by O'Conner, and then again just prior to the 125th Anniversary. Painting them is very difficult; it involves not only the standard surface prep and paint, but also recreating the oil paintings and gold leaf lettering all over again.

I'm happy to hear that more research is going into Jupiter. Honestly, it has never looked "right" to me since being repainted what a few have dubbed "Pepsi Blue."

(Check out Jim Wilke's excellent renderings of the Jupiter in a darker shade of blue. I like it! http://discussion.cprr.net/2008/02/jupi ... olors.html).

Jeff Terry


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 822
Both locomotives were repainted after the completion of UT tests, boiler repairs, re-tubing and new Form 4s in the Spring of 2015. Both also received new boiler jackets at that time.

This work was done to NPS specifications. That is why I asked 'what's wrong with them now'?

It almost sounds like not everyone is aware of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Redoing the Golden Spike engines
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:18 am
Posts: 264
I know that Wasatch did the overhaul and replaced the jacket, but I didn't read anything about a complete repainting. It was big news when they did it in '94. They had to bring in artists and experts in gold leaf.

Any links to photos? I'd like to see what changes were made.


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