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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2601
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Vandalism has been an ongoing problem at KRM for the 20+ years they have been in New Haven. The town has a rough reputation, and it appears that the police and junvenile court system didn't/doesn't care, and thus the problem hasn't been deterred. Of course, the museum only took rather feeble steps recently to try to protect its equipment.

One real vicitim to the vandalism was the 10 section/solariums heavyweight Pullman Mt. Broderick. Within a week of its arrival in New Haven in 1991 the interior was largely destroyed by vandals. Now it sits, with its interior largely stripped from an abortive restoration effort as the museum continues to "play train."

The L&N business car Kentucky was purchased with money given by the Commonwealth of Kentucky. I'm sure its price was well into the six figures. It's needed, at the very least, a new roof paint job, and other minor work for years. It's only getting worse.

The L&N "Jim Crow" combine 665 was one of the first pieces of equipment donated to the museum. Last time I drove by the museum on a visit home back last spring, I was shocked at its condition and how bad it has gotten.

I could go on, but I just keep getting more and more depressed.

By contrast, and as mentioned prviously, the display of L&N equipment at the depot in Bowling Green, KY is more heartening. They have taken a "less is more" approach and have created a nice little display that is very striking.

Mr. Levin, watch your inbox for a PM.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 6097
wilkinsd wrote:


By contrast, and as mentioned prviously, the display of L&N equipment at the depot in Bowling Green, KY is more heartening. They have taken a "less is more" approach and have created a nice little display that is very striking.

Mr. Levin, watch your inbox for a PM.


David -

It is my understanding (perhaps it's wrong) that a number of pieces of equipment at Bowling Green are not actually ex-Louisville & Nashville, but are from other railroads and replicated as L&N. Nothing wrong with this if so explained and especially if you are trying to present a L&N train to the public, but I just wonder what IS genuine L&N and what isn't.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
Les, David and the forum....

All and all an interesting subject matter... and here is the L&N wooden car mentioned by David, a sad state of affairs for a piece of equipment that certainly is historic, rare and likely one of a kind.. Perhaps David can shed light to the condition this car was in upon its arrival under the care of KRM .... ( in other words did the damage in the photographs happen prior to KRM ownership or prior ) .. Nonetheless, to leave it as it is, is certainly troubling.... but I suspect a wood car does not fit into the "operating plan" at KRM....

In regards to David's comments on the Mt. Broderick, your statements appear to be accurate from my assessment as the car is shoved in deep to the back of the dead equipment line.... It appears to at least have the appearance from a look inside of a restoration that started and stopped... Also note in the second batch of photographs the selection of what would almost appear to be residential style windows with weep holes ... certainly not what one would think best represents the original sash details.....

Finally to David.... Can you recall the history of how KRM decided to buy L&N 363 "Kentucky"... Was this bought in the era of "Family Lines".. or was "CSX" the company that sold it off... As it seems L&N business cars were not named, did the name "Kentucky" get added to this car, in private ownership, Family Lines ownership or at some period unknown... Seems the car, like other things, is somewhat neglected ( although at least it is under an outdoor shed... Was there ever an operating scheme for the 363 ? .. the last COT&S date on the car was from 1998 ( almost 14 years ago ? )

and to Les.... I think the E8 in Bowling Green might be a CNW engine, the RPO a B&O car, the diner a SP car, the sleeper was L&N Travelers Pine, and the business car was L&N 353....A Southern bay window is also a the depot . ( I also understand they recently purchased an Army hospital car and a pretty rough wooden Jim Crow coach ).

all very interesting nonetheless


Dean Levin


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Last edited by PLATFORMCAR on Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
the Pullman Mt. Broderick ( mentioned by Mr. Wilkins ) above....


Dean


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:12 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
Posts: 820
Location: cheyenne
Shocking to see that wooden combine, honestly, a weeks work would see new siding on there, or a half day would see boards slapped over those holes, you can get away with a bit more time on the steel cars (although not the kind of neglect we see here) but not with a wooden car.

Come on get the priorities in order here, close down for a while and get some trains running you can be proud of.

Mike Pannell


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2601
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Les Beckman wrote:

David -

It is my understanding (perhaps it's wrong) that a number of pieces of equipment at Bowling Green are not actually ex-Louisville & Nashville, but are from other railroads and replicated as L&N. Nothing wrong with this if so explained and especially if you are trying to present a L&N train to the public, but I just wonder what IS genuine L&N and what isn't.

Les


The E8 is a former CNW unit, the RPO is an actual L&N RPO that was in the possession of the Bluegrass Railroad Museum. It's of the same class as the L&N RPO at Steamtown.

The Diner is ex SP 10202, purchased from Amtrak by KRM and then sold to the group in Bowling Green.

The sleeping car is an ex-L&N pine series car, and the business car is ex L&N.

The caboose is actually a former Chessie System cab, painted as an L&N caboose. The Jim Crow car they recently acquired is from the Glasgow Railroad, an L&N subsidiary. It's in very bad shape, and very little is left, externally it is very similar to the 665 at KRM.

Now to Answer Dean's Questions:

L&N 665-Jim Crow Combine

The 665 (Jim Crow Combine) came to KRM in 1957 after being refurbished by the L&N. It came in very good shape. Later on, the L&N borrowed the car and used it as the car that accompanied The General in its tours. After arriving back at KRM it remained in good shape until the 1980s. Even when I first showed up in the 1990s, it wasn't horrible, with most of the siding, windows, and other parts intact.

In 2003 or 2004 I put together a proposal to "cacoon" the 665, using the same methods Strasburg developed. I put together a bill of materials, an estimate of cost, and then had contacted a lumber yard who was interested in donating some materials, selling others at cost. The executive director rebuffed me as it being "too expensive" even before I could get the part about having materials donated out of my mouth.

L&N 363 Business Car

The "Kentucky" was purchased by private ownership. All I know is that the state of Kentucky paid for it. Soon after being bought it was used on a political special for the then-governor, running for re-election, so I have ideas why it was bought.

I seem to think it got its name in the Family Lines era. It was often paired with an ex Army hospital car/power car that is still in the CSX fleet as "Kentucky." I think it was called "Kentucky II" in the Family Lines era.

I don't think there was ever an "operating scheme" for the car, other than to use it for charters and special events. The car was used for some time as the "head end power car" for the aforementioned "dinner train" operation, a use its generator was not designed for.

Last time I was in the car, I noticed that paint was flaking off the ceiling in the dining room, probably from not being stored with power on and climate control.

Pullman Mt. Broderick

The windows for the Mt. Broderick were bought because they were thought by those in charge at the time to be cheaper than wooden replacements. The car had traditional inner and outer sash Pullman windows. The inner sash windows were in good shape, but the outer ones were rotten. I'm sure the residential style windows ended up costing more money than appropriate replacements, and I do know they were a bear to modify the car to fit.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:10 pm
Posts: 178
Location: TN
PLATFORMCAR wrote:
( I also understand they recently purchased an Army hospital car and a pretty rough wooden Jim Crow coach ).


I just happened to see the Jim Crow car on my way north this summer that I believe is the Bowling Green one. It had a ladder up like work was being done, and in previous pics of that spot in Glasgow, KY, it had not been there, so I can only assume it was where it was to be moved. If I remember right this is L&N 663, identical to KRM's 665.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2601
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
In the interest of showing how bad things have gotten, I dug out an old photo album from my early days at KRM. All photos were taken in the 1993-1994 range. I apologize for the poor quality, I was young and it was a cheap camera I could keep in my pocket. Two photos show the Jim Crow combine, 665 when it was pulled into the barn in the winter of 1993-1994 for evaluation. We removed a ceiling panel. The car was in pretty good shape. Any real problems were in the siding of the car, but the side sills of the car were in good shape. One photo shows that at one time, KRM could field a nice looking heavyweight L&N train. The final photo shows L&N 770 at the same time, in pretty decent shape.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Here is 770. It was in pretty good shape at the time, a far cry from today.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2601
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
The 663 and 665 are both AC&F products. They were originally built as coaches, but in the 1920s went back to ACF, were rebuilt to Jim Crow configuration, and received the steel "fish belly" frame. The 663's condition shows how this was accomplished, and the steel side sills.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 394
The world is a lot smaller after learning that the Mt. Broderick wa sheavily vandalized. All of these years I had been resting easy...assuming that the car was in good hands.

You know, a lot of operating museums are desperate for coaches and here sits a hand full of nice ones going to waste.

This all reminds me of the wasteland in Calara, Alabama. Why don't they just call the scrapper and cut it all up?

T7


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:04 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 467
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
Amazing the quality of conversation that a little sarcasm can inspire. It may be hard to believe, but my initial reply to Les' question was not intended to inspire a KRM bash, though I agree with most all the comments.

One of the real regrets that I have in my preservation efforts over the past 20+ years is a lack of success in acquiring L&N passenger equipment. The effort has been made and the resources made available, and the planets have just never aligned to allow it to happen. Even sent a check to CSX once for a car and after several weeks called to see where my car and bill of sale were: "oh, I sold it to someone else. I'll send your check back. Sorry." Well yes I just figured out that Mr. CSX equipment sales was in fact "sorry". Ooops, there's that sarcasm again. BTW, the CSX person has long since retired.

So, the thought of KRM running this stuff into the ground and then spending resources on non L&N items adds to my frustration. I do hope that they don't scrap any of it without first offering it for sale/transfer to other persons or organizations. On a related note, I understand that HOD has "purged" much of their equipment deadline recently, including some parts that several organizations (including me) could have used had we known.

To update the box car situation, I understand that the paperwork is being shuffled for title to transfer, and arrangements are in the works for the car to move to its new home. So at least this car "wins", and will live to fight another day. Les is also correct about the restoration offer on 770. There are people in the world that could/would make it happen. Sadly, KRM's management is not in that group of people. Aw damn, there's that sarcasm again.......

Dean, thanks for the current photographs and condition reports. David thanks for the historical background -- I really wasn't trying to rub salt in old wounds.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:46 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:47 am
Posts: 230
Location: www.frrm.org
As one who became a junior member at KRM at the age of 14 and who has continued to support them by tossing a few hundred buck their way occasionally over the years, this thread has saddened me. I have wondered why they de-L&Nized their train in recent years and still wonder why they did that.

I'm the guy who started the trade of the Kentucky Club for the ex-SAL 821 coach because I felt the Florida RR Museum wasn't doing the KC justice. I put a lot of work into that car from organizing and contributing to it's purchase from Royal American Shows to designing and printing historical poster that went inside the car to a bunch of other stuff. KRM hasn't moved it because it has older roller bearing trucks and CSX want rotating end caps to move it. KRM says they are sending different trucks to move it. We'll see. Meanwhile, the 821 was moved and is being used occasionally in the Fla RR Museum trains. It has been restored inside and painted outside.

I felt that KRM would be the right place for the KC but now I'm beginning to wonder. It is a nice car and still has it's L&N bar and furniture in the lounge area. I always wanted to get the tavern seating replaced because Royal American changed that to some gaudy red crap that looked like a French whore house. They even painted the walls pink and put in red shag carpet. We changed all of that but it still needs more restoration. I hope it won't join the other cars on KRM's back lot once they move it.

KRM suffered greatly from floods both at their original location on River Road in Louisville and recently in New Haven, Ky. They lost their model railroad building to a flood this year.
They need their own flood wall but who will buy that?

-JH


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:38 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2601
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
etalcos wrote:
David thanks for the historical background -- I really wasn't trying to rub salt in old wounds.


Understood. Sometimes it's hard to publicly admit the truth, even though you know it and would say it privately. This has been a good exercise, and makes me feel fortunate that I received an opportunity to further my education in St. Louis and stay here afterwards. I'm a much happier volunteer at MOT without having to deal with this stuff.

Jim Herron wrote:
I felt that KRM would be the right place for the KC but now I'm beginning to wonder. It is a nice car and still has it's L&N bar and furniture in the lounge area. I always wanted to get the tavern seating replaced because Royal American changed that to some gaudy red crap that looked like a French whore house. They even painted the walls pink and put in red shag carpet. We changed all of that but it still needs more restoration. I hope it won't join the other cars on KRM's back lot once they move it.


The few times I mentioned the KC during my brief visits, I've suggested putting it on a flat car. Probably would be in New Haven now if they did.

My Final Thoughts:

As I pointed out to Mr. Beckman in a PM last night, I cannot point to one event where KRM "turned bad." There wasn't one regime change, membership fight, decision that led the museum to where it is now. What I have seen, however, are a bunch of well-meaning, but blatantly bad small decisions by those in charge. Over time, these bad decisions (failure to engage in long term planning, secure storage of valuable equipment, targeted equipment specific fundraising, membership development, issues relating to museum governance, etc.) compound and the museum is where it is today.

The real high point of my involvement at KRM was in 1995 when the new museum building depot opened. The old museum, a converted supermarket, had been damaged in a 1993 tornado. I really thought KRM had turned the corner with that, there was a lot of support, donors, and interest. The opening night gala was rather large. I really thought that this was the beginning of KRM turning the corner, that car barns, a better shop, more restoration work, were all around the corner. Instead, those in charge simply rested on their laurels, and only incremental progress occurred afterwards, if any. I'd say that regression was really what happened.

Another point came in 2001 or so when, at a membership meeting, some of us got together, and ran a board member to oust one of the "in charge" clique that was up for election. It was successful, I thought we could then begin to replace that clique and turn things around. The very next board meeting, the ousted person was put back on the board via appointment. The excuse: He was the only person that could talk to the bank. If only one person can talk to the bank, there is a problem with the organization.

Is your organization a tourist railroad or a museum? Can you do both, while keeping true to your museum mission? Does your museum have long term goals, fundraising plans in place? What can you do to develop membership, volunteers for the future? What can you do to engage the local fan base, or those interested in preserving regionally significant equipment? These are all questions that have been asked at just about every operating museum. KRM is the only place where they have answered every question the wrong way.

I really do worry about the future of KRM in the long term. What they are doing is not sustainable, to both the equipment "preserved" and to the dwindling membership/volunteer base. I sometimes think the endgame is a Trolleyville-like auction. I hope it doesn't come to that, but I do wonder....

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:41 am 

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KRM is the only place where they have answered every question the wrong way.


Never been to Bluegrass Railroad Museum have you.......


  
 
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