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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:02 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
boilerwash wrote:
Quote:
KRM is the only place where they have answered every question the wrong way.


Never been to Bluegrass Railroad Museum have you.......


They've at least let another organization take some equipment they couldn't care for (L&N RPO now in Bowling Green).

This is depressing. Kentucky may be the new Ohio in terms of Railway Preservation, save for the bright spot of the group in Bowling Green.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:44 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5647
boilerwash wrote:
Quote:
KRM is the only place where they have answered every question the wrong way.


Never been to Bluegrass Railroad Museum have you.......


Boilerwash -

I've been to both KRM and BGRM, although not in the past couple of years. Here is my evaluation:

Train ride - KRM wins hands down. Especially if 152 is running. My recollection of the BGRM ride is that it was S-L-O-W.

Website - BGRM seems to be honest in presenting their problems. They also have a complete roster of equipment, even the stuff that is in bad shape. They present their problems with the train ride and the trestles that are in bad shape that prevent them from extending the active trackage. There is a very limited listing of equipment on the KRM site, with most stuff not even mentioned.

Restorations - BGRM shows on their website, the work they are doing and some of the results of that work. They also state what they want to do with some of the equipment. Perhaps KRM has plans too, but I see nothing on their site as to what they might be.

The above is a personal opinion and should be treated as such. Maybe someone can give a more up-to-date analysis.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:18 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
My guess/speculation based on some information is that the group of people at KRM who are actually doing mechanical work is probably strikingly/scarily small by comparison to other museums. The dwindling of available hands and expertise to get work done is tiny, compared with the people who pontificate and like to play train. If one or two people, who fix things and keep them running, quit coming out, I'm sure the place would slowly grind to a halt.

I'm halfway expecting a stern email from one of those in charge at KRM regarding my comments. What are they going to do to me? Revoke my life membership? Big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:15 pm 

[/quote]

Boilerwash -

I've been to both KRM and BGRM, although not in the past couple of years. Here is my evaluation:

Train ride - KRM wins hands down. Especially if 152 is running. My recollection of the BGRM ride is that it was S-L-O-W.

Website - BGRM seems to be honest in presenting their problems. They also have a complete roster of equipment, even the stuff that is in bad shape. They present their problems with the train ride and the trestles that are in bad shape that prevent them from extending the active trackage. There is a very limited listing of equipment on the KRM site, with most stuff not even mentioned.

Restorations - BGRM shows on their website, the work they are doing and some of the results of that work. They also state what they want to do with some of the equipment. Perhaps KRM has plans too, but I see nothing on their site as to what they might be.

The above is a personal opinion and should be treated as such. Maybe someone can give a more up-to-date analysis.

Les[/quote]

-Well the BGRM train ride would be slow for safety reasons. Especially since those Jersey Central cars they insist on using are being held together by force of habit and bird crap alone. That and when you're standing on the pilot of the engine and every rail joint in front of you jumps up at least 4 inches when you go over it, speeds not exactly a good idea.

-Funny you should mention the website being better than KRM's. I was actually the one that overhauled their website some years ago when their then webmaster up and hauled off on day. About 75% of the site you see today is still my work including the roster pages which are more or less complete because if you only listed the pieces they have that are in good condition there'd be no page at all.

That crowded, flashing, seizure inducing mess of a homepage of theirs is definately NOT my work BTW.

-As for restorations, there is a specific difference from saying somethings under restoration on your website and actually restoring it. The 7738 has been "under restoration" for close to 8 years now and so far the work on it has consisited of 1/2 of the snow plow on the front getting painted.

It would have been the whole plow but the guy doing it wasn't liked by a couple of board members and was promptly run off.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
Enjoyed reading the interesting evaluations offered by Les, David, etalco's, Boilerwash and Jim Herron...and the forum

A few thoughts that immediately came to mind.... In regards to KRM trading for the "Kentucky Club", I would have to wonder given the state of the existing L&N equipment on the property in New Haven, what the initial need was for another L&N car, given the existing L&N equipment has been side lined and is not utilized... Under ideal circumstances the restoration and trading for the "Kentucky Club" by KRM seems to be logical, however with a dozen or so existing L&N cars on the property showing immediate urgency to have critical work done, does the "Kentucky Club" as the new object of affection get all of the effort and disposable dollars....? I wonder....However from the looks of things, it would appear ( to some extent ) that the recent purchase of an ex VIA diner ( which ran on the Maine Eastern ) might be what they might be concentrating some of their efforts on ? ( although it wasn't in their shop complex .. just sitting by itself ) .. see attached photographs....

In New Haven, I was pretty amazed at the quantity of original L&N ( and other roads ) head end equipment all showing no effort from its L&N days to be cared for. It would seem to me ...that perhaps at least 6-8 heavyweight baggage cars exist in New Haven... among dozens of other freight cars, passenger car and M&W type equipment. Perhaps David can share, if at one point in time, there was a "dedicated plan" to operate a train of solely L&N equipment.... if so, how close did this plan come to happening... and if it did happen for a period of time, how long did it last ?...

Unfortunately, it would seem with the exception of Jim Herron's recent dealings and the history provided by David, very little is actually known other than what the eye can see....( which is not too favorable ) ... however I would likely think, that if what you can physically see is indicative of what is going on there today, I do not believe the "Kentucky Club's" best interest is in New Haven..... Just an opinion solely based on seeing first hand the condition of the equipment presently on hand


Dean Levin


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
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a sampling of some L&N head end equipment at New Haven


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:59 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:22 pm
Posts: 429
David or the forum ...

Was this diner an ex L&N car ? ( at New Haven )


Dean


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
PLATFORMCAR wrote:
Perhaps David can share, if at one point in time, there was a "dedicated plan" to operate a train of solely L&N equipment.... if so, how close did this plan come to happening... and if it did happen for a period of time, how long did it last ?...


Dean, haven't you been paying attention? There hasn't been a plan for anything in years to do much of anything, hence the trouble the place is in now. Every acquision, including the current "train" and diner are just band aids, "temporary" solutions that compound over time.

The Diner
The diner is a former L&N heavyweight diner. Can't remember the number, but it's name is Phostelwait's Tavern. Very similar to the Galt House at IRM, though I don't think it recieved the 1950s modernization as the car at KRM still has windows in the kitchen. The one at IRM has an electric kitchen. The one at KRM was in work train service for years. It was then at Louisville Scrap Metals for a while, before being purchased by the Madison RR. KRM traded the Madison RR for it, giving up an Pullman-built ex SP coach 2359 (Shasta Daylight, big windows).

Baggage Cars
The baggage cars were mostly bought from the L&N in the early 1970s as mobile storage, a function they still perform. Other than the early 1970s mainline excursions, none ever saw much use after that.

We used one of the round roof cars in a consist once as part of a movie train for ABC's turn of the century documentary. 18 years ago, they were in good enough shape to look good enough for film with a wash and wax job.

Dean missed two actually nice pieces of equipment in the barn, and not seen by the public. The first is a Brill Model 55 motorcar from the Frankfort & Cincinnati Railroad. It was cosmetically restored by a contractor a number of years ago. Work quality was overall good, a few minor things, nothing that couldn't be corrected easily. The other is a former Louisville Railway Company horsecar.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:01 pm 

Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:40 am
Posts: 119
I know of a certain organization in Oak Ridge, Tennessee that could use some L&N passenger equipment in their collection. They would kill to have the Kentucky Club or the L&N dining car mentioned above.....or both. They would have the right roller bearings under the Kentucky Club and have the car moving so fast it would make everyone's head spin. While I applaud the efforts of the group in Bowling Green, those two cars are still very road worthy and need to be in a moving museum and not stuffed and mounted.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:13 am 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 448
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
A couple of notes/minor corrections:

845 was one of six coach shells delivered to Southern in 1958, not 1950. They were built in Worchester (spelling?) Mass.

David, I don't think this is the Posthelwaites Tavern -- wish I could see the trucks. This car looks more like Bobby Jones old car, Strike the Gold. Bobby was Teminal Super. for CSXT in Louisville and he kept the car near the yard for a long time. I want to say he was a principal in the Madison Railroad as well. Strike the Gold might be just their speed -- think living room on wheels.


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:19 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
No, it's Phostelwait's Tavern. It has a largely stripped interior, I've seen it myself. I think Jones still owns Strike the Gold.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:57 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5647
wilkinsd wrote:
No, it's Phostelwait's Tavern. It has a largely stripped interior, I've seen it myself. I think Jones still owns Strike the Gold.


David -

There just has to be a story behind the name of this diner; Phostelwait's Tavern. Is that the name of a town or an actual tavern or a bit of fiction on the part of the L&N or .........? Please enlighten us if you know the story. Thanks.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Staring in 1942 or so, the L&N began naming their heavyweight diners as they came in for shopping. Not all of the heavyweight diners were named, and there appears to be no rhyme or reason as to which ones were named. The names chosen were famous and old hotels/taverns in the region traveled by the L&N. (Fun fact, the diners received their names when wearing the pre-war green scheme)

At one point, there was an article-a-month in the L&N employees magazine about these, but they stopped, and the diner renaming continued. My guess is that news about the war trumped such stories. I used to have scans out of the L&N magazines of the histories of the Galt House and Phostelwait's Tavern, but that was 4 computers and 2 hard drive crashes ago.

Phostelwait's Tavern was an old tavern in the Lexington area.
Cross Keys Tavern (At the Indiana Transportation Museum) was located in the same region
Galt House (At IRM) was a famous hotel in Louisville, presently in its third incarnation)
Duncan Tavern (At BGRM) another historic tavern in the Lexington area.

The more "fun" names were reserved for the post-war streamlined diners built for the Hummingbird/Georgian and other trains (Fiesta Inn, Duncan Hines, Dixie Traveler)

I don't have a listing of all of them, but I believe there was a Globe Coffee House, a St. Louis Hotel, and others.

The C&O also had a diner named Phostelwait's Tavern, I beleive it was a twin unit 1950 PS product.

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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5647
David -

Wow! Thanks for all the information.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: NC&StL box car/Flying Duchess 0-6-0T from England/KRM
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:45 pm
Posts: 12
I am going to answer this one section at a time so that the slow and hard of reading can comprehend this.

"-Well the BGRM train ride would be slow for safety reasons. Especially since those Jersey Central cars they insist on using are being held together by force of habit and bird crap alone. That and when you're standing on the pilot of the engine and every rail joint in front of you jumps up at least 4 inches when you go over it, speeds not exactly a good idea."

I believe, however you can fact check, that they are currently repairing the track issues at hand but then again lets get the root of this issue this track is 75 pound rail built in the 1800's with little to know track maintenance done by previous owner before purchased so they where left with ties that where 50 years old on small rail. KRM purchased from CSX who left them with fantastic track on 100 pound rail, not hard to run fast and keep up maintenance. It also helps when you Kentuckys Railroad Museum and get money from the state right and left to ease the burden of maintenance by hiring well paid contractors... We always forget that little detail. They have never hidden the fact there rails are old and wore out in fact every time i ride with them which is 3 to 4 times a year they explain why they go slow, to be honest i like the slow ride gives me time to look around.

"-Funny you should mention the website being better than KRM's. I was actually the one that overhauled their website some years ago when their then webmaster up and hauled off on day. About 75% of the site you see today is still my work including the roster pages which are more or less complete because if you only listed the pieces they have that are in good condition there'd be no page at all.

That crowded, flashing, seizure inducing mess of a homepage of theirs is definately NOT my work BTW."

I find it funny you proclaim to have built the site but yet also say that you didn't do the terrible front page. I only mention this because well let be honest you probably never looked but the roster and side pages are all part of the SAME flash program that runs the front page, in fact they look the same aside from the content. So either you did NOT fix their site or your the reason its a how did you word it "crowded, flashing, seizure inducing mess." So which is it or are you going to back track?



"-As for restorations, there is a specific difference from saying somethings under restoration on your website and actually restoring it. The 7738 has been "under restoration" for close to 8 years now and so far the work on it has consisited of 1/2 of the snow plow on the front getting painted.

"It would have been the whole plow but the guy doing it wasn't liked by a couple of board members and was promptly run off."

Again I have always noted that they explain that its hard to do proper restoration with the little to no money they earn from the excursion side of the business but then again you know that with your little Tonka train you run for little kids right, Or are you making money hand over fist with that? Personally i would not let you near my kid with that train but that's purely because you look like a homicidal pedophile (i am going to throw in personal attacks since you seem to love them with the museum.) What did you restore while you where a member out there? The half painted snow plow? You where there a year and managed to do what? If your going to sling mud be sure that if can't get back on you.


I have been going to this museum for train rides for a little over 6 years with my kids and i know this person Boilerwash personally and his personal attacks are unfounded BGRM suffers the same issues that just about every other museum has in the world including money problems, staffing issues, bicker among members, and pissed off ex members like this young man. Lets be realistic those of you that have volunteered or spent time at any museum has seen people like this that are disgruntled because they where run off for being destructive, combative, or just useless. This one from what i have learned was a triple threat and maintain all three of above stated issues bravo young man for being the trash of Kentucky and continuing a vendetta against a Non-profit museum. Whats next kicking babies, beating dogs, slapping nuns, or maybe your just gonna continue to be a useless member of the society and post more slanderous spouts about Kentucky's railroad museums.

I tell you what Mr. Cole you should be ashamed of yourself, you have spent the last three years of your life chasing BGRM on the internet trying every last time to make them look bad. You have only made yourself look silly among your peers, and achieved nothing for yourself against BGRM aside from wasting money on silly attempts vandalize the grounds. How about you stop your charade and move on with your life, grow up find a women (or man) they have websites to help you in that. Stop wasting your time no matter how hard to try BGRM will more then likely be around a few more years.

On a side note while talking with a member of BGRM i was just informed that they have completed repairs on third and finial trestle and are one step closer to being back to the river. They will be repairing one more spot on the line before doing a complete rehab with tie replacement to fix the mentioned about bad joints and will be running on it very very soon kudos to my friends at BGRM at setting a restoration goal and achieving said goal obviously they are making progress aside from what Mr. Cole continues to spew.

Best regards ad happy railfanning
SteamThis


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