Well the obvious answer is that contractors are bonded and carry lots of insurance.

Is the B&O museum different than other railroad museums? Are there no volunteers doing restoration work there?

Steve

I have hesitated to weigh in here, but I must. They have a terrific new modern shop built with insurance money from the Roundhouse collapse, and a very fine paid and volunteer restoration crew.

They also have a backlog of projects that can probably be measured in decades.

You can basically survey the collection and then come up with your own priority list. But ranking on qualities like rarity, national significance, relevance to site, and any others you may care to throw in, I bet you will have a hard time coming up with a ranking on which 4876 places very high.

My own ranking would include restoring all 19c locomotive power and rolling stock first, most B&O and WM power and rolling stock second, other steam third, and then the GG-1, sometime in the 2030s at this rate. YMMV.

As a westerner (aka, not a Pennsy guy) and someone who has suggested that this loco is a candidate for scrapping....

Assuming this loco will never run again, so any restoration would be purely cosmetic, with the exception of enough bearing and brake work to allow hospital moves...

What would it take...

I assume clean the interior... spray a conversion primer around liberally to reduce additional corrosion from inside...

Cut out and weld in body patches... install faux doors, plexi windows...

Paint and letter...

Understanding that the C&O has a very dim view of moving it on its own wheels... can it be put in acceptable shape that if there was some place to go... and some level of support that it could be safely moved as a hospital move?

I assume there are the typical GG1 frame cracks... that it has solid bearings... but we are talking hospital move, not 80mph passenger service.

From there....

1) where would it land?
2) how would it be interpreted?
3) how would it be cared for, to assure that IF it was to receive a cosmetic restoration that the effort wasn't wasted?

As a museum guy (beyond railroads) it screams to be on the end of one of the track at Washington DC Union Station... with really nice interpretive panels both about how GG-1 locomotives were the "signature" power on Pennsy trains, but also about the incident where it went through the floor, how they fixed the floor for the Ike's inauguration, then later removed the loco from its tomb and returned it to service...

Of course it would eat 80 some feet of track space in a crowded terminal and of course, it represents a train wreck in that terminal... and as such is a black eye for rail travel, and as such is not as welcome as we may hope...

Where else could it land as a static display?

Ideas?

Randy

[bangs head slowly but hard on desk top, then proceeds to do an Internet search for exorcists in the San Mateo, CA area.........]

Randy:
Review the various threads, then come back.

This has been covered. As long as WUT is being used as a passenger rail terminal, 4876 WILL NOT BE PERMITTED TO COME BACK FOR DISPLAY. EVER.



It's being worked on back-channel.

Think a public museum facility (or potential museum site) within the proverbial "shouting distance" or stone's throw of the PRR Northeast Corridor and/or the Philly-Harrisburg line where 4876 ran, not that particularly close to other GG1's. There might even be a railroad-themed museum--or more than one--fitting those parameters.

ADM... you are up late on this fine evening....

I understand that for political and operation reasons it will not be displayed in the Washington Terminal... But as a museum guy and story teller (not necessarily just a railroad museum guy) its story is very centered on that spot... and while I understand that the people running the terminal see it as a black eye... it is also a story about dealing with a situation, and a story about later recovering the locomotive...

I am glad to hear that there are some non public discussions... they are much more likely to succeed than any effort on this very public board.

May the locomotive win.

Randy

GG-1's are roller bearing. Only an inspection would determine the condition of any GG-1 frame but I'd bet the average unit is in decent enough shape to move on its own wheels in a special movement.

This supposition is based on the notion that a unit that was in service until they were finally withdrawn could not have been too bad if they were being used and lives were at stake. In the many years since, corrosion would have taken a further toll but not thundering along the mainline at speed, which is what would really grow the cracks, they probably haven't changed too much since retirement in terms of frame cracking.

I am guessing there was an interval where a GG-1 that was discovered to have frame cracking bad enough to be sidelined was no longer being sent for welding repairs but was instead sent to scrap, while others continued in service. That would mean the ones in service at the very end were in the best shape, the worst having been weeded. Unless someone who is more familiar with their history knows that all were parked and mostly sent to scrap with the rest.

However, having said that, it doesn't necessarily apply to particular units that were deemed significant and could have escaped an early scrapping for that reason. That would apply to Old Rivets, and maybe the Harrisburg GG-1, and could possibly apply to 4876 as well.

Bottom line...only an inspection can tell. And I don't even know how well you can inspect with the body in place. But I'd still bet that given appropriate prep work it could move safely on its own wheels. Especially if the distance is not too far. Getting the carrier to agree is another matter entirely. Maybe the fact that the present owner is a former relative could help loosen their thinking. One may hope.

Steve

I'll put in another pitch for the idea that an art museum might well be the better choice. Loewy and American industrial design aren't limited to the NE corridor or the PRR.

dave

You know... that's actually not that bad. Compare to WRM, Noblesville, IRM or - God help them Seashore ... all of them are probably more than a century out.


B&ORM has a good reputation for best practices, so I presume a well-reasoned collection policy is in place, and includes some concept of priorities in the vein of what you speak. All due respect, especially in light of the roof collapse, but that policy is failing you here.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bomuseum/rdg2101-2.jpg

Shabby. Just shabby. Yes, I'm aware some photographers like that patina of decay. But they only like it when ... well, you know it when you see it. Not all units wear distress well, and it looks particularly bad on 2101.

Yes, public perception matters. Whatever policy B&ORM sets is self-serving unless it also matches what the public wants - and the public wants a GG1 quite clearly, as the 4876 is one of the more photographed units at the B&O despite its location and condition (which does NOT have that pleasurable patina, I would point out.)

I must ask this, ADM, Do you know for a 100% fact, in writing, that they would never allow it? Or are you just making a logical assumption?

Actually, that comment shows no due respect or knowledge of current restorations at the museum at all. I've stayed quiet in this thread so far as I have nothing to say that hasn't been said already, but as someone who has given the B&O Museum Rail Ops and Restorations depts almost every Saturday of my life since I was 25 (13 years ago) I do have to reply to this. So I take it your shaking your finger at the museum about the AFT 1? What would you have us put aside to take its place? The AJ Cromwell currently undergoing restorations? Maybe we should have waited on the Memnon and the Thatcher Perkins? The roof collapse damaged pieces that are far more rare and valuable, not to mention important to the history of railroading than one of few remaining Reading T-1s, nevermind the G.

I have spoken with at least three fairly high-up Amtrak officials about the matter/prospects over the years, casually, and "off the record". Two of them are "card-carrying railfans" that admit they have to keep some of their enthusiasm in check, as the areas they work still look down somewhat upon the concept of railfans.

The gist of the profanity-laden verbal reaction I got from all three is that you would have to be drunk or mentally disabled to even suggest the idea specifically with regards to 4876, and that if you did, you would possibly set back the rail preservation movement's relationship with Amtrak (such as it is) by a decade or more. Basically..... "Don't.... you.... dare....even THINK of asking them officially!!!"

I believe that Brother Woodring can tell you of receiving similar reaction to his inquiries.

This is a quasi-public agency with a default bad public image. Their job is to run trains and help others (in this case, VRE and MARC) run trains as well. Their job does not involve indulging railfans' whims, in spite of taxpayer subsidy. And if you can't understand why the idea of putting a locomotive that careened out of control into the very station at which you propose to put it on display on display at said station while thousands of passengers are still arriving and departing from adjacent tracks daily is a preposterously horrible idea.... then, really, you need help. Seriously.

The guy who deals with WUT operations will tell you that there's NO ROOM to put ANYTHING there on ANY track permanently. "We're maxed out on every damned inch!"

Non-track/operations space at WUT is priced at exorbitant amounts per square foot, even if you COULD put it in the Great Hall or whatever.

Further questions? Anyone? Buehler?...................Bu-u-ehler??.............


With regards to the B&O Museum and AFT1, a further question for Brother Edwards: Is there some official policy that prevents a donor from paying the cost for a paid, professional crew to come in and paint the AFT 1 elsewhere on the property, using a temporary structure or the Restoration Facility's paint booth after-hours? I'm having some trouble believing that any "paint booth" at the Facility is in such constant use that arrangements couldn't be made for AFT 1 to take a turn, if someone else's money is involved.

Times have changed. Back in the day...

But today, even if there was room and the owners thought it would be a good idea, what good would it do? Unless you are willing to trespass, you can't get on the platform without a ticket, the lighting stinks and at certain times of the day, if you stop to read something, you will get run over by the commuters. It isn't like Harrisburg, where you can visit the station and go out on a platform to see the GG1 and caboose. At WUT, it would be difficult to make such an arrangement.

I do have to smile at the idea of taking one of the noses (I wonder if you figure which one?) chop off the first three feet and have it sticking into the current day concourse at track 16. Don't remark it, have any signs. Just have it there for travelers to ponder.

Bob

I don't think WUS is the right place for it but mostly because of congestion and no easy way to arrange it for people to see it. So I wouldn't press that issue.

The Amtrak people's reaction warrants a chuckle though because it's rather knee-jerk: "Heck no, we don't want to have anything to do with an engine that is famous for a crash." Nevermind that the engine had nothing to do with the cause and was as much a victim as anyone or anything else, or that the engine was entrusted with people's safety for another half century, or that the engine's design likely saved the lives of its crew (think about an E60 or AEM7). Oh wait, maybe we're on to something. Maybe it's best not to make people think about how modern power would fare in a crash or modern cars piling up behind it.

All moot because it's not going there anyway. But, as I said, their reaction is amusing.

Steve

First, 4876 served only another thirty years, not fifty.

Second, as the one official said explicitly, "Any other GG1, maybe at least a snowball's chances in hell. THAT one, no WAY in hell!" I brought up the 4935's appearance down there during the WUT centennial this past year, and he replied, "First, that wasn't 4876. Second, it's a whole different ball game when you can say, 'We're not going to ask a favor like this for another fifty years at best!'"

If you had a flight attendant that pointed out to passengers the spots where airplanes belly-flopped into the East River or Potomac River in years past while their planes were making a final approach to the airports, that attendant would be sacked upon landing. Ditto for a bus driver that pointed out bus crash locations as they were tooling along. And I wouldn't hold out much hope for a cruise director that pointed out where other ocean passenger ships sank, collided, etc.

Once again: Any realistic proposal will 1) not even ask about putting any GG1 in WUT for now; and 2) NOT suggest 4876 anywhere NEAR a passenger-boarding point on Amtrak or other passenger trains. This leaves lots of options. You could, for example, propose trading 4876 with a museum or scrapper for another locomotive, or gutting her for that wacky suggestion of "put a new transformer in her and rewire her".........

Oops...typo on the age at retirement. I knew that and wasn't thinking clearly.