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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:20 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:25 am
Posts: 925
Looking at this whole discussion from sunny Southern California, I'll make two comments:
A) Judging from the photos and reports, I would suggest that if a cosmetic restoration project is started, anyone planning to join the work party should make sure their tetanus immunization is up to date.
B) Regarding the GG-1 in Dallas (and other locations far from the Northeast Corridor) Maybe the real thing only ran on the Pennsy, but hundreds of the 1/48 scale version ran under Christmas trees and in store windows throughout this land of ours at this time of year. This might account for some of the interest in a specialized locomotive outside its native habitat.

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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:58 am
Posts: 936
Location: Chicago USA
So long as the museums in appropriate areas that wanted one have one or had the opportunity to get one when they were being retired there's no reason not to spread the joy.

Regionalism is fine up to a point but if things get preserved in different areas so be it. The GG-1 is certainly of interest to fans from coast to coast. I am certainly glad to be able to look at one at IRM along with a New York Central S-Motor and a N&W Y-something Mallet. Pity I have to drive all the way to St. Louis to see a MILW Bi-Polar but it beats going to the Pacific Northwest. Hmm...maybe someone out there should have saved one ...but they didn't.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:01 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 1955
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Normally I don't get involved in things Pennsy, but take THIS from a Central man:

Where the RS-2 has field relevance, the GG-1 has NATIONAL relevance. It is a "household word", widely known and admired by the public. It is one of the most photographed engines at any museum that has one, even at B&ORM. Despite the oft-poor maintenance and often poor positioning. Remember it is not just another steamer but an ELECTRIC, certainly one of the only famous American electrics, absolutely the most successful electric, which ran for 60 years in America's most successful electrification. With styling that is like almost nothing else. Even at an international level, it is probably the locomotive most recognized as being utterly, uniquely American. I'm amazed there's not one at York.

There are not nearly enough GG-1's for all the museums with an interest in same.

The real issue is that the GG-1 is under-preserved. LOL we've heard that before. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if all surviving GG-1s were well cared for. Since they are not, our interest in preservation is well justified and timely.

As for the challenge of restoration, I hear many comments that make me wonder if the speakers have ever restored a piece of equipment in their whole lives. Yes, lead is a concern. As is asbestos. But the same is true of modern threats like BPA, isocyanates, black mold, black widow bites, deafness, eye injury, weld spatter, falling, and drilling into your hand. Yet, somehow the fatality rate of restorationists is very very low.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:14 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 pm
Posts: 6700
Location: Baltimore, MD
robertmacdowell wrote:
Yes, lead is a concern. As is asbestos. But the same is true of modern threats like BPA, isocyanates, black mold, black widow bites, deafness, eye injury, weld spatter, falling, and drilling into your hand. Yet, somehow the fatality rate of restorationists is very very low.


The problem with lead, asbestos, PCBs, etc. is not the potential danger to the preservationists who wish to slap a coat of Bondo and paint on 4876 or any other loco, Pullman, etc. The problem is the safety and protective demands made by OSHA, EPA, Md. Department of the Environment (which, ironically, has offices and keeps some emergency-response vehicles a few hundred feet away from that GG1!), etc. in addressing these potential hazards. We preservationists are not being paranoid; rather, paranoia is legislatively mandated upon us, and we have to play by said rules.

Quote:
There are not nearly enough GG-1's for all the museums with an interest in same.


Then feel free to let all those other museums with this alleged "interest" in a GG1 know of the existence of at least one "spare" GG1, one with a spectacular story to boot, probably "free" for the taking, and let them commence their fundraising efforts as soon as they contact the B&O Museum to express an interest and procure an inspection report and transportation plan and estimate.

[crickets chirping]

First come, first served. Take a number, please.

[more crickets.....]

The Port of Baltimore is just across town.....

[more crickets chirping, a toad croaks.....]

Act by midnight tomorrow, and we'll throw in a freight car free!

[dead silence, as the crickets and toad are now hibernating.....]


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:38 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:58 am
Posts: 936
Location: Chicago USA
Given unlimited resources we'd have unlimited joy. But as that's clearly not the case, it so happens that the resources needed to preserve this particular one are far, far less if it can remain where it is and avoid needing to be made road worthy. That lowers the effort and money needed to a level a small group of interested persons can manage.

Plus it can always be traded or given away later. If you have this nice looking cosmetically restored GG-1 that needs a new home, a prospective acquire-er might materialize and do what's needed to move it. As it exists now, not so much.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:56 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:07 am
Posts: 328
Image
bvpr186 by zelkee, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:29 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:02 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Back in NE Ohio
FLO wrote:
Image
bvpr186 by zelkee, on Flickr


I believe that is the way it emerged from the post-wreck rebuild? So, that is the way it should be represented if that ever comes about. Pennsy made some mechanical and cosmetic changes to it in the rebuild that would make the original Lowey five-stripe scheme inaccurate for the way it looks now. There had been reports that it was one of the first G's to be painted Tuscan, but that turned out not to be true.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:40 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:26 am
Posts: 2924
Location: Maine
Thank you for providing that image.

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Maine Central 470 - "Think outside of the park."


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:33 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 pm
Posts: 6700
Location: Baltimore, MD
PaulWWoodring wrote:
I believe that is the way it emerged from the post-wreck rebuild? So, that is the way it should be represented if that ever comes about. Pennsy made some mechanical and cosmetic changes to it in the rebuild that would make the original Lowey five-stripe scheme inaccurate for the way it looks now. There had been reports that it was one of the first G's to be painted Tuscan, but that turned out not to be true.

Nope and nope. From Zimmerman's The Remarkable GG1, page 44:
Quote:
Though [Brunswick] green was the standard GG1 color, there were a few departures from it. In January of 1952, the PRR began painting six GG1's--No. 4908-4913--Tuscan red for use on the new Budd-built Senator and Congressional trains, put into service on March 17. The following year No. 4876, after being totally rebuilt following a wreck, was also put in the five-stripe red scheme, as were Nos. 4856, 4857, and 4929. Also in 1952, gold leaf was discontinued in all passenger car and locomotive striping and lettering and was replaced by Dupont's "Dulux"--a gold-colored synthetic.

The so-called "broad stripe" scheme was introduced in March 1955; the book includes a Herb Harwood photo of 4876 running in 1964 with broad-stripe but only partially-modified air intakes. (The air intake modifications started after a freak snowstorm in February 1958.) Only a very few--possibly only 2 or 3--ended up with the half-upper, half-lower intakes 4876 now sports, and that is not a result of the WUT damage rebuild........


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:44 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:02 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Back in NE Ohio
I stand corrected. Thanks, Sandy for the clarifications. It would look great in the Tuscan 5-stripe, indeed! I know that I've never been fond of the PC/Conrail black job it's been wearing.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 1955
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
The problem with lead, asbestos, PCBs, etc. is not the potential danger to the preservationists who wish to slap a coat of Bondo and paint on 4876 or any other loco, Pullman, etc. The problem is the safety and protective demands made by OSHA, EPA, Md. Department of the Environment (which, ironically, has offices and keeps some emergency-response vehicles a few hundred feet away from that GG1!), etc. in addressing these potential hazards. We preservationists are not being paranoid; rather, paranoia is legislatively mandated upon us, and we have to play by said rules.

In that case, we had better actually read them. The naysayers would have us believe the rules prohibit doing anything at all. I doubt that. Imagine an old building with the heater pipes full of asbestos. Do you think a heater repairman isn't allowed to fix a blower motor or thermostat? Of course he is. His duty is non-exacerbation; work around it; don't make it worse.

I'll admit I don't know the exact law here, but I've worked with a bit of environmental regs in the past, and approximate compliance is achievable, "its bark is worse than its bite."

Quote:
[crickets chirping]
[more crickets.....]
[more crickets chirping, a toad croaks.....]
Act by midnight tomorrow, and we'll throw in a freight car free!

How about an SW1? ;)

Anyway these things take time. Look at Henry Ford with their GG-1. Has taken years since their purchase, and Henry Ford carries 270,000 people a year on their train so we are not dealing with a penniless outfit here.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 pm
Posts: 6700
Location: Baltimore, MD
robertmacdowell wrote:
Look at Henry Ford with their GG-1. Has taken years since their purchase, and Henry Ford carries 270,000 people a year on their train so we are not dealing with a penniless outfit here.


And the fact that an institution as large, professional, wealthy, and respected (relatively speaking) as the Henry Ford Museum can't manage to get their GG1 moved adds considerably to my cynicism about any lesser party or institution managing to deal with the likes of 4876. (Now, granted, it's conceivable that they just plumb forgot about it..... but not likely.)


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 1955
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
And the fact that an institution as large, professional, wealthy, and respected (relatively speaking) as the Henry Ford Museum can't manage to get their GG1 moved adds considerably to my cynicism about any lesser party or institution managing to deal with the likes of 4876. (Now, granted, it's conceivable that they just plumb forgot about it..... but not likely.)

Why does that make you cynical? What if these things simply take time by nature. Are you impatient? Is a transfer not a transfer unless it happens within - what - 1 year? 90 days? 30 days?


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:32 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 pm
Posts: 6700
Location: Baltimore, MD
I don't want to get anyone's hopes up yet.

But this entire back-and-forth discussion here has apparently instigated at least one serious inquiry, to my knowledge, regarding a POSSIBLE future home/fate for this unit.

Key to the discussions now at hand is the plan that the projected funding and logistics plan involved with this proposal could take several years to fully execute, in part because of budgetary planning......................

So, IF this proposal makes its way through proper channels and gets a thumbs-up to proceed, a "stabilization" involving Bondo, rust remediation, whatever may well be in order. This doesn't mean that the B&O Railroad Museum will necessarily allow or permit volunteers to come in and work on the loco, or the prospective future owners either, for that matter..... but stay tuned.


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 Post subject: Re: GG-1 4876
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:29 pm
Posts: 320
Location: Youngstown, OH
Well that is certainly hopeful news. This is the type of situation that I was talking about when advocating stabilizing the locomotive. Just because a plan does not exist now does not preclude a plan being created at some future time.

Apparently the B&O Museum does permit contractors to perform work on site, or else their roof would never have been rebuilt. So why would they not permit other parties on site to stabilize and prepare the 4876 for shipment?

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Steel Industry Preservationist


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