The person delivering this news says he learned about it while reading a roster. However, he does not quite make it clear that the roster acually says the locomotives were dumped. If the roster did actually state this, I don’t see the point of speculating what the items in the water that appear to be frames are.

If the roster says two H6sb locomotives were dumped in the river, I would assume that they were. There is nothing far fetched about such an action. And if there are large steel frames visible in the water today, I would regard that as strong evidence that the locomotives were not subsequently recovered for scrap, and that the frames are at least related to the locomotive dumping.

So why the need for speculation?

Here is my speculation about the need for speculation:

The person conveying the news had heard through the grapevine that two PRR locomotives were dumped in the river for flood control. The roster shows two H6sb locomotives being dropped from the roster about the time of a big flood. The person conveying the news has assumed that the two locomotives listed dropped on the roster are the two locomotives rumored to have been dumped in the river.

I'm getting confused, are there two engines that could possibly be there or three?

In any case, there's really no reason to get too excited about them even if they are there. The rumor always said "They grabbed some freshly rebuilt locomotives, just out of the shop..." oh, wait, that's not it. They actually said "Shoved a couple of old locomotives into the river with a bulldozer" or something along those lines.

Obviously, they wouldn't have been in great shape to start with. Rolling down the bank wouldn't do them any favors, and spending the last 75 years or so in the Allegheny is not opitimal storage for steel.

I'm interested in the story, but purely from a "Is that what really happened" and if so what kind of engines they were point of view, rather than hoping I can salvage them, restore them, and double head them around Horseshoe Curve!

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but if this rumor has been around for awhile and if the interest is there, why hasn't anyone gone there to check it out in person? The area is certainly accessible and it seems reasonable that one could rent the necessary equipment and/or personnel to solve the mystery one way or the other.

The reason is that the rumor said they'd dumped the locomotives into the river along with a bunch of rock and stuff to keep it from washing away. The assumption was that they were buried as part of the fill.

You couldn't see them (lots of us looked) and using a metal detector would be futile, as there's metal everywhere around those parts.

Besides, why spend a lot of time and money to find a junk locomotive?

Now that some parts are visible, that would be an option. If I still lived nearby, I'd gladly go have a look, but I don't, and I don't think my 70+ year old father would be willing to swim around looking for them...

Report on the efforts to stem the flood damage says: "Four hundred carloads of heavy stone and two steel hopper cars were dumped into the breach". No mention of locomotives is made. I am quoting from "Inspection Tour of the Physical Properties of the Pennsylvania Railroad in the Pittsburgh District" dated January 10th, 1937.

Locomotives and 9081 9371 are reported in the roster document as having been dumped into the river, March 27, 1936.

As an archaeological project, it's interesting. Pennsy guys are nuts about their railroad and can't get enough. I'd love to know if the locomotives are there and what kind of shape they're in, and I'm betting "not good" is about the best thing to be said. But there may not be locomotives in there at this date - period. That being said, if there are locomotives in there, the deeper, colder, and darker they are, the better their steel condition. They are probably stripped, heavily deformed, bent, and twisted by all the rock placed on top of them.

All I'm saying is, the visible frames are not necessarily the tenders of these locomotives. And yes, it's two, not three. I was in error in my earlier posting.

That seems to fit with the info I was told as a kid. Of course I asked "Can I see them?" and was told "No, they buried them" or something along those lines. I think the concern was the nearby dam failing if the river went around the end of it.

There is also a Boston and Maine Pacific in the harbor in Portsmouth, NH. Sadly it would up there in what was an accident.

Richard,

Thanks for that clarification. That would seem to confirm the story.

Regarding the B&M Pacific, it was moved during bridge construction several decades ago. It's still in the drink, but not where it fell. I have heard a report that it is heavily encrusted with barnacles and rust, and badly eroded. Original plans were to raise it during bridge construction and then scrap it. It was decided that it was cost efficient to just leave her in the river. Divers do visit the hulk on occasion.

Generally, I don’t regard lost locomotives as having value for recovery and restoration. I regard them as historical artifacts, or as just a tangible piece of an era that is so long gone that it is hard to believe it ever happened. So, in my mind, the older the better.

Being just below the dam, you may not be able to (legally) get to them in a boat... not being the sailing type I can't say for certain. If I can get over there before the greenery sprouts this spring, I'll see if you can see anything with a zoom lens.

If those are tender frames, the locomotives would presumably be upstream.... being heavier they wouldn't float downstream as far as the frames.

As a reminder, there's a much-closer-to-serviceable steam locomotive in a just slightly more accessible spot in the Pittsburgh area, if someone really wants one.

Nick

You presume correctly, Bob- I mean the New Zealand river.

Wes

I wouldn't doubt it being real, there's areas where cars were used as flood or erosion control along rivers and streams, and some of them are still there today. Nothing restorable but still having a bit of existence left.

I went to the web site called KEYSTONE CROSSING where an entire roster of PRR steam locomotives can be found. I looked up those two engine numbers #9081 and #9371 . If you click on those two numbers it clearly states: They were dumped along the river in 1936 as part of a flood control effort ! Check it out for yourselves.
Are they still there ???????


Kevin K.

Kevin -

Isn't there some TV Production on PBS that would be interested in such a story and recovery effort?

Les