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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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The Allegheny is an especially harsh environment. Lots of coal in the area. You've heard of "acid rain". Well, the steel mill directly across the river makes that stuff all day long.

(I recently found out that my High School, on the bluff right above this location, was in the top 10 in the country... for levels of air pollution! The cafeteria special was apparently "Burger with a side of Chromium")

Been to the EBT lately and see the "moth eaten" hopper cars with the side sheets pretty much gone? That's what happens above ground, imagine what happens underwater!

I'm thinking they'd make the WP&Y loco look good by comparison...


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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:10 pm 

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Location: South Carolina
Bobharbison wrote:
The Allegheny is an especially harsh environment. Lots of coal in the area. You've heard of "acid rain". Well, the steel mill directly across the river makes that stuff all day long. <snip>
I'm thinking they'd make the WP&Y loco look good by comparison...


Maybe, but many experts predicted there wouldn't be much left of the Confederate submarine Hunley after being submerged in shallow, relatively warm seawater for 100+ years, and it was found in remarkably good condition.

Whatever shape they're in, it'd be pretty cool to find them.

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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
I might point out, the Hunley is wrought iron, not steel.

I think that part of the mystique of the Hunley was the hope that finding the relic would shed some light on how she was lost... although I don't know that it has. Also, there was very little extant engineering information, so the details of how it was built were missing.

The PRR engines supposedly in the drink, on the other hand, may be some of the best documented machines of all time. If one was to exhume them, one would go back to all the engineering data to figure out how to fix them... and possibly realize it would be easier to start from scratch and build them new. So, what is really the point of trying to raise them? Other than knowing that they are down there lets one in on a secret that 99.99% of the population isn't aware of, so what? Most of us who are fans and amateur historians know that railroad equipment was occasionally used for rip rap, so it shouldn't surprise us. If anything is surprising at all, it's that the disposition was noted on a roster, but that was likely done to make sure the AFE file was updated correctly.

I think that if one were to collect all the "lost", buried, and sunken engine stories, one could easily come up with fifty to one hundred engines, and likely almost half the stories are true. Many of them likely omit the fact that the engine was recovered for salvage later, but hey, that's how you make the mundane into a really good story. I bet if we spun the yarn that FDR's own personal engineer was running them when they jumped into the river, on a trip that started from the "hidden" track under Grand Central Terminal, we could even get a TV station to do a story on them

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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:11 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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I was simply interested to find out that they really were there, and that it was in fact actually a couple of locomotives rather than a tank car or something else. The main reason I'm interested in this one is that it involves my hometown.

I never entertained any thoughts of salvaging them, though I think it would be cool if somebody could pinpoint their location and find proof they're still there. Even if they did, I wouldn't suggest anything be done with them.

We were just discussing the PRR 0-6-0 at the W&W in another thread. Want a PRR "basket case"? There you go! Yep, it's in sad shape, but I'm quite certain it's a heck of a lot better than these locos would look, if there's anything left of them at all.

As others have noted, this was the railroad equivelant of tossing a junk car in the creek to keep the bank from washing away. They didn't think it was worth saving then, and it's not a bottle of wine so it's not getting better with age...

Quote:
I bet if we spun the yarn that FDR's own personal engineer was running them when they jumped into the river, on a trip that started from the "hidden" track under Grand Central Terminal....


You weren't supposed to talk about that! It was purely "need to know" basis. Great, now the CIA is going to shut down the site and follow us around in black helicopters!


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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:47 pm
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This story was covered some years back in the Keystone. I remember that the engines were ready to go but it was decided to use loaded hoppers instead. The H6sbs were never actually dumped into the river. Sorry. I'd like to find some, too.


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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:56 pm
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Location: Norwalk, Ohio
I've been following these post's on the dumped engines and i'll have to admit i find this very interesting as i love anything to do hunting and finding old RR artifacts.As for salvaging them it just isn't going to happen due to the many factors that would prohibit doing so,but it sure would be neat to see what they look like even if they are big sorry globs of encrusted rust covered with mud!

I see nothing wrong with trying to pinpoint the exact location and being able to prove that they are still there and to document and research them more.I'm sure they were stripped of all jewelry and useful parts before being dumped into the river if it happened? If they could be located maybe a smokebox door could be retrieved from one,then restored with a Thomas smiley face painted on it and a small monument erected with it on the riverbank along the road to mark the site where they were dumped.

I had to laugh at the link Dennis provided with the Thomas face looking up from the river! It's to bad the engines weren't some smaller older 4-4-0's that were dumped in shallower water and easier to access,now that would really be entertaining.Let's face it though,water is not kind to iron and steel! I've retrieved RR artifacts on a much much smaller scale from watery graves and i know first hand how it effects some of the old RR iron.First off i'm not a big water fan but i don't have a problem jumping in shallow water if i can see what lies at the bottom or find it with a metal detector.

I'm no expert on what chemicals are in water,or the types of iron or steel but i know what it does to stuff that i find and have brought home.For instance iron coupling link's and pins seem to be made of the same type of iron.I have found them in creeks and rivers and you would be suprised at the varying conditions they are in and most have probably been in the water for over 120 years or more.Some seem to be in remarkably good shape from some sites.

Now others i've found in the west branch of the Huron River in Monroeville,Ohio are encrusted with a good 1/4" or more of rusty globby scale wich will flake off when you tap the item with a ball peen hammer or RR spike to remove it.After doing so the coupling pin or link has a nasty black iron residue wich leaches out and will litterly stain the skin on your hands! After the iron item has dried off and you wire wheel it the link or pins outer coating is nothing but strands of iron.

This alway's puzzeled me why everything found in that river was in poor shape.Then while doing some research i found a article from March 4th 1872 quoted (that the RR was going to abandon the water tank at Monroeville on account of the poor water quality and the injurious effects upon the machinery of the road,that the wash from a distillery was impregnating the water with "benzine" and that even the bowels of the locomotives couldn't stand it.) They must have done something as they built a newer water tower at the site sometime between 1891-1918.

The water in the river at Ashtabula,Ohio at the site of the Dec.29th 1876 train wreck is also very harsh.I have found close to a dozen link & pins there in the river under the newer current 1904 RR bridge wich was built with concrete double arches and high earthen fill is on the same site as the old bridge that collapsed.The iron there is in horrible shape! Links & pins are about 1/3 the size they once were and nothing but strands of iron.Are they from the wreck? Some maybe,others maybe not? It's what can still be found that keeps me looking.If your afraid to get wet then don't bother looking there as you won't find a thing! Some say it's been hunted dry.Hmmm?

At a site west of Chilicothe on the old B&O SW i found a 80lb chunk of broken cast wide tread wheel and a coupling link that were in remarkably good shape with next to nothing scale on them and they cleaned up beautifully.Over on the same RR line to the east in Vinton County i have found RR iron in Raccoon Creek wich gets alot of run off from abandoned coal mines.The water is almost a blue green.Some items were not bad at all while a old slotted knuckle i found in the water was ate up terribly and was pockmarked with and full of tiny holes throughout it's surface.

One of the biggest and heaviest items i hauled home was a 750 lb. 1912 cast LSE Ry. trolley wheel i pulled out of a creek a few years back.That line was ripped out in 1938 and the wheel had been there in the water for who knows how long,at least maybe 80 plus years? It was pretty scaley and the rust is still flaking off it in places.I'm sure these 2 PRR locos in the Allegheny River over in Pa. are probably ate up bad with rust and covered with mud even being there since 1936 and with who knows what chemicals or run off has been in the water since,so they probably won't be a pretty site if there!

It doesn't hurt to imagine or dream about them or even research them further.Does anybody have any actual photo's of the 2 when they were in service?


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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Location: Beaumont, Texas
Dennis Storzek wrote:
... I think that if one were to collect all the "lost", buried, and sunken engine stories, one could easily come up with fifty to one hundred engines, and likely almost half the stories are true. Many of them likely omit the fact that the engine was recovered for salvage later, but hey, that's how you make the mundane into a really good story. ...


Not a bad guess; I have recorded 12 "lost", 21 buried, and 77 sunk steam locomotives worldwide; most of them in North America. In most instances, however, their existance is known and there are even pictures of them; I have a few of them in my database.

Yes, some, like the engine Clive Cussler looked for in Colorado, were recovered later or even at least partly scrapped in the WWII metal drive. But, some of them are out there and are for real.

Regarding the sunken Rock Island 4-4-0 in Oklahoma; it is my understanding that during later bridge work the supports of the bridge were partly poured over the locomotive. So there is no way that one will ever be recovered.

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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:17 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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survivingworldsteam wrote:
Not a bad guess; I have recorded 12 "lost", 21 buried, and 77 sunk steam locomotives worldwide; most of them in North America.


James,

Could you post that list of the ones in North America?

Also, I understand the distintion between buried and sunk, but I don't understand your distinction between those two categories and the category called "lost."


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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:30 pm 

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Remember, many of those listed as locomotives are merely abandoned boilers.

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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Richard Glueck wrote:
Remember, many of those listed as locomotives are merely abandoned boilers.


They range from little more than just the boiler to a complete but throughly rusted out locomotive from decades of neglect in a moist environment.

Most of the ones I was talking about don't show up in Conrad's directory, so in my book at least, they were "lost" but now are "found."

1. A Dickson 0-4-0T-T abandoned on the old railroad grade, Chugach, Valdez-Cordova, AK; relatlive intact and listed by Conrad

* Not in my "list of 12"; but engines dumped as rip rap by WP&Y in the Skayway River; of which two have since been dragged out, and three remain in the river

* There was a H.K. Porter engine since found in Butte Lake in 1997, removed, and is now on display in Chester, CA; since found but no longer lost

2. Siskiyou Lmb? two truck Shay said to be abandoned west of Dorris, CA

3. An 0-4-0T said to be abandoned on Texas Hill (Emigrant Gap), CA

4. The boiler of D&RGW 77 abandoned at Teffts Spur Sawmill site, Cascade (below Silverton), CO

5. Rutledge Co. Climax abandoned at Marble Creek, ID; little more than a cab and boiler

6. A quarry engine seen at the Bedford Christian Camp, 6km S of Bedford, IN in the 1960s, it is probably gone now

7. What sounds like a GaryvilleNorthern RR (ex. NYE) Baldwin Forney abandoned in the woods near Livingston, LA. The person who told me about this one saw it with his father on a hunting trip; it was surrounded with trees making it hard to see. His father is too frail to show it to him now, and he himself does not know where it was; so it waits to be rediscovered one day.

8. Another NYE Forney, ex-Napoleon Cypress locomotive abandoned on the shore of Lake Verret, Morgan City, LA. Have pictures of this one, not much more than a boiler, saddle and remains of the cab frame now.

9. Allen Cooperage Co. Shay #1; reported abandoned in the swamp near Alan (near Port Gibson), MS. This one has not been confirmed, and may be in the Mississippi River now.

10. Norwood Lumber Co. #1? a two truck Shay at Forney’s Creek logging site nr Clingmans Dome, Forney Creek Trail, Cherokee, NC. Remains only; I have as my source http://hikingthecarolinas.com/featured_photo.php

11. Shay said to be abandoned in Rimini, SC, USA

12. Brooklyn Coop Shay #303 abandoned in the woods near Sumter, SC, USA; partly scrapped during the WWII metal drives

13. Buffelen Lmb Heisler #5; abandoned after running away into the Tacoma City Watershed, Eagle Gorge, WA. Have pictures of this one; remains were recovered by Scott Wickert for a possible restoration.

14. BeaverCoveLbr.&Pulp Shay #6; abondoned on the beach at East Bay, Beaver Cove, BC, Canada after an aborted removal for scrap; another Shay, #2, is sunk further out in the lake. Seen pictures of this one.

15. Another shay said to be abandoned on Desmin Island (private), Campbell River, BC, Canada

16. This dismantled remains of Kelly Logging Shay #4 at Aero Camp, Moresby Island, BC, Canada; I think I have seen pictures of this one

17. Haslam Lumber (ex-NYE?) Forney #4; abandoned at Jervis Inlet (S. of Powell River), BC, Canada

18. Abernathy and Lougheed Logging Co. Heisler overtuned and abandoned at Golden Ears Park, Maple Ridge, BC, Canada

* Conrad lists the remains of CPR(NWCoal&Nav) 2-6-0 #6 at Yoho Campground, Field, BC, Canada. But this could be considered a "lost" locomotive; once again mostly scrapped and only the boiler, frame, and tender tank remain.

19 & 20 A pair of engines found in the Sierra Madres, abandoned on a mining line in 1912; now on display in a plaza at Chinipas, Chihuahua, Mexico

21-23 three Palmajero Mining Co. locomotives said to be abandoned NW of Temoris, Palmarejo, Chihuahua, Mexico

24. Another said to be abandoned at Grupo Acero del Norte Mine, Esperanzas, Coahuila

25 A compressed air (OK, not a steam locomotive per say) abandoned at Pole Pick Mine, Blewett, WA, USA

I initially searched the database for "abandoned" when I came up with 12; your request sent me deep diving into my database, where I came up with 25.

Out of most folks area of intrest but a interesting example is a Dubs 0-6-0T that was isolated by rockslides on the side of the Corta Atalaya open-cast mine, Minas de Rio Tinto, Huelva, Andalousia Province, Spain. Colin Garrett spent several hours climbing down to take pictures of it; he believes it's isolated location will leave it there for an eternity. His books contains lots of pictures of other locomotives dumped and abandoned in remote locations; there are others as well.

I will let the forum chew on this for a while, and save the sunk/buried locomotives for another time.

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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:39 pm 

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Location: southeastern USA
James = Rimini is just on the south line of Sumter County, SC. I think both Shays are the same Shay. Too bad, we could use another one.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
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Location: South Carolina
Dave wrote:
James = Rimini is just on the south line of Sumter County, SC. I think both Shays are the same Shay. Too bad, we could use another one.

dave


Dave, I corresponded with the author of the book "Logging Roads of SC" (Tom Fetters) shortly after the book came out, and I'm pretty sure they're NOT the same engine. One Shay has been photographed (photos are on one of the Shay sites) and is sitting upright. Mr. Fetters had either seen or corresponded with someone who'd seen the other Shay and said it is laying on its side at the edge of the water on a river in the area.

Just another one of those things that I need to find the time to check out some weekend...

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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:38 pm
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Location: New Jersey, Central
James, do you have this one?
http://www.brian894x4.com/RingofFire.html


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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:15 pm 

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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
If you include abandoned mining locomotives, there is one in a flooded upper MidWest iron ore mine that has been featured in published photographs by cave divers.


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 Post subject: Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm
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survivingworldsteam wrote:
* There was a H.K. Porter engine since found in Butte Lake in 1997, removed, and is now on display in Chester, CA; since found but no longer lost

That locomotive was found in Butt Valley Reservoir (sometimes called Butt Lake). It was used in construction of the dam and abandoned when the project was completed.

Butte Lake is a natural lake in the northeast corner of Lassen Volcanic National Park, and is not where that locomotive was used.


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