If my writing skills were better and I had the time, I could provide a case study on a great opportunity all but destroyed by caustic people.
We worked long and hard to buy the first 8 miles of the railroad. 2 years later we bought another 12 miles. Things were good, 30 to 50 people at membership meetings 20 people every week end at work parties. Things happening, bright future.
Fast forward to today. 2 or 3 non trustees show up at membership meetings, a good work day is 5 people there. They have succeeded in making it their own little quickly crumbling kingdom.
They make their own interpretations of F.R.A. operating rules to suit their wants and needs and keep people away. There is no communications as to when work parties are or what is going on. Their response is just show up and we’ll let you know what we are thinking of doing. 1 or 2 of the worst down there are known on the internet as being the most nasty people around to the “buff’s” as they call them. I must say though a few of the “buff’s “ deserved what they got, but how many good people did you run off?
I put together a steam weekend with one the traveling locomotives. Went well lot’s of people, I found a couple people that wanted to help out. Nope ,not aloud. They were not going to be on the train crew but were willing to help out anyway we could use them. The reason being “we had safety training in April, Not going to do any training till next April”, The only way they can be on property is as paying customers.
This was in September. How many of those 5 people were at the next May’s training? No that is not a typo, The date got changed after the few of us regulars that did show up in April were told when we got there we would have to wait a month to have the training session.
When the week end was all said and done we started adding up revenue, looked like we should clear 7 to 8 thousand Dollars. Then the security company walked up and handed me a bill for $ 6,500.00.Captain personality wanted to make sure the “buff’s “ weren’t stealing things and were not out on the line getting free pictures. It turns out he had 6 officers on duty. This was not a blue engine event and we could have handled the crowd with volunteers and maybe one officer.
This short overview being posted, I must in honesty say I know of one person who isn’t there because I’m president of the organization, but one person does not equal the whole problem. I won’t go down there and work with these people if that tells you anything.
The conversation about the attempted hostile takeover in Michigan could never happen here. We have always had by- laws that make sure that exact thing could not happen here. We how ever have the exact opposite problem, You can’t get people interested long enough to make it to board position, so the caustic people continue on the path to ruin.

The thing is, it's not just "caustic" or "abrasive" people, sometimes, it's folks who are just downright weird.

I think we've all seen, or at least heard about, the "Heritage Unit" video. That type of behavior is all too common under the big tent of our collective hobby (historic education, railfanning, model railroading, railroadiana collection, etc...), and seems to just be an accepted and acceptable part of it.

I honestly think it's one of the things holding it back from attracting a wider audience.

I know this may sound somewhat arrogant, but one of the things that I think has contributed to the growth of The CRHS has been the fact that the people running it have been a well socialized bunch of guys who have some charisma and who potential volunteers would want to spend time hanging out and working with.

How frequently are people going to want to come out and help when they have the "oh man, I hope that guy isn't going to be there".

Look around at organizations that have had long term, sustained success. Not only do they required solid planning, execution, etc... but they're also generally full of rather personable people.

I'll second that. While I haven't spent much time there and have not barged into their shop, I have been up watching trains and staked out a service stop while they were heading to Tacoma last year and they have to be the coolest group I've run across in this neighborhood. They are personable and smart,and also have been banging out Top-Notch work at a rather alarming rate in the past few years....Check them out. Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad.

Cheers, Dave

Jack, I think your writing skills are perfectly fine. You really hit the nail on the head about what is going on in the organization. I don't remember buying 12 more miles... or a steam engine... and don't you use a different name around the museum? Wait, what organization are we talking about here? There can't be TWO with the exact same problems, can there?


There are two kinds of leaders.
#1. Places the interests of the organization first, retaining power second.
#2. Puts retaining power first, interest of the organization second.
The first kind tends to start groups, but lose control quickly. The second tends to gain control easily and keep it for a long time.


Every group of volunteers is motivated by one thing or the other: A shared belief in the organization's VISION, or a circle of friendship, a buddy CLUB. A failing organization usually lacks a vision, so the second one arises by default. It's back to: which gets placed first, the interests of the organization or of the buddy club contained therein. Problems like:

A new volunteer doesn't even realize he's auditioning for a circle of friends. A social dynamic is occurring, and they will gossip behind his back and decide whether he's in or out, and that will determine his reception on future visits, or whether he's even called back.

The EXPERT volunteer has an even rougher time. When he offers good ideas to the organization, the social group bristles with offense. They see pompous arrogance (they don't know the difference between that and expertise) and they MUST slap it down to restore the social pecking order. So they say dismissive things, often with strained rationalizations that make absolutely no sense whatsoever. The expert sees this as arrogant and ignorant at once. He's gone. Social order preserved! Yay!

This buddy club and its effects are not intentional. They didn't wax their moustaches and go "HA HA, let's take over a railroad museum today!" The buddy club formed in-place at the museum, naturally, out of normal social patterns, and nobody thought it did any harm. How else do you organize? Volunteers who didn't fit in the social group for some reason just didn't get supported or treated friendly, so they gave up and left.


Yeah, that's a sick but perfectly common example of the club and its mentality controlling things and making efforts to grow the group futile. And yes -- training, particularly.

That is because training is THE point of entry for most new volunteers, certainly any on the operating track. If they can control training, they control the volunteer corps.

Again they're not out to do it as an evil plan... but it hurts the organization not the social group, and they're there for the social group, so they don't care.


Isolated incident or tip of the icerberg??? Be careful here. You are not immune to those exact same power dynamics here described. You should take as a presumption that you are not immune, and may be doing all those things unawares. Like I say, the "buddy club" doesn't spend an hour every morning practicing their "Mwahahaha" evil laugh. They have no idea their social dynamics are killing the organization.

So you gotta seriously ask yourself if you're part of the problem, and give it definitive action.

At extremes, the highest calling in this business is to fall on your sword for the sake of the organization. Good luck even knowing you're the problem.


You have to find a sideways way in. At many organizations there are enough distinct groups that you may be able to form another group that doesn't really interact with the problem people much. Just make sure to deliver the goods, because it's hard for anyone to argue with success.

I consider "members must be approved by the board/committee" to be a rather bad idea because it's a breeding ground for the buddy club. That prospect terrified the people who wrote the Michigan group's original bylaws. After the takeover attempt, the group revised bylaws. I will say this - as much as that group tends to be a "buddy club", there was very little support for going to the "members must be approved by the board" model. I drafted the bylaw change. Instead of create board approval, we redefined the purpose of membership much more explicitly, so it is crystal clear that a takeover vote-bot is definitely not a legitimate member. We did a number of other things too. The bylaws incorporate California SLAPP protection, to deter frivolous lawsuits. Michigan hasn't passed a SLAPP law yet, but any Michigan resident can opt in by joining the museum. It's a well kept secret or I suspect half of Lansing would be members already.

The other thing about the Michigan case is the bylaw made no difference. The Board ALREADY had license to intrepret their own bylaws. Big courts view boards as a court of first recourse on any governance issue, and they are reluctant to reverse a Board decision that is reasonable. The Board had a duty to consider the entire universe of facts. If it looks like a sham, walks like a sham, quacks like a sham, it's a sham, and the Board had a right (in fact a duty) to say so, and stick to it. The court would have backed them up, and actually it would have been very perilous for the takeover group to have the full facts exposed in full court. As such I doubt they would have dared. But the board did not have the courage to call it that way, so we'll never know for sure.

Kudos to you, Robert, for posting the reality of boorish behavior by volunteers/museum members and the social dynamics of the "buddy/club" system which turns so many people away from working and enjoying the hobby.The exact details you have described have been played out coast to coast with identical results.

Insular groups within an organization are the first ones to hand wring there are not enough warm bodies to operate a museum/operation, but when newcomers do show up, they are treated like idiots. Or, they will complain there is no funding for their "pet" projects. When you do get funding from an elected official, they wage war with you since the funding is a work project which needs to be bid by contractors, and not be done by their own hands (and usually with no written plan,timeline, price, etc., but why let these details get in the way of their fun?).

The question becomes how does a museum/tourist operation change this behavior. This is tricky, since there is at least one official in an organization who will protect the interests of the buddy/club system at all costs, including resignation of other Officers and Trustees. Perhaps a bylaw of "conduct unbecoming" by a member would be the first step in a course of action. Or, the reorganization of the volunteer workforce to emulate a model by another museum/operator which works and includes everyone with airtight procedures for how restoration/operation is to be performed with harsh consequences for those who harass and intimidate.

Kinda like how a real Class I railroad is operated.

I get that people think there is a general group of strange train fans who have questionable social skills (with hygiene to match), and they’re right. Train enthusiasts do seem to have more than our fair share of people like that. But really, they’re in ALL hobbies. I’m into other things and I see “foamers” in all other hobbies as well, just called by other names.
In other hobbies, they can appears downright scary. Go to any gun show and you’ll see what I mean. Antique airplane people can be a little off as well, but when you say, “Hey, I fly a WW2 fighter plane,” most people turn a blind eye toward how ‘off’ the person might be because frankly, your average person can’t do that or will never get the chance (I have flight time in fighters and bombers, but that’s a totally different topic). Most of those people are as harmless as any railroad fan, but they have same issues that cause other like them into trains to be called, “Foamers.” And on the subject of names, EVER hobby has derogatory names for types of people into the hobby who don’t see things exactly the way you do.
It’s much like what a buddy of mine who is into Star Trek (but doesn’t have a Starfleet uniform or rubber Spock ears hidden away anywhere) once told me, “My problem is I can’t stand more than half of the people who are into the same things I am.” You’re never going to weed out these kinds of people, because they come in degrees and nobody can agree on where the line between, “quirky” and “foamer” really is. All of us have some kind of issue, because ‘normal’ people don’t get excited about old rusty trains the way we do, plain and simple. If you want to only let in the perfectly well-adjusted, you’re probably not going to have anyone (and might even have other members show you the door). Don’t forget, personality to a large degree isn’t measurable.
That said, I do agree that trains attract a special breed of them. No concept of human interaction, unfamiliar with an interesting substance called, ‘soap’ and having what others would refer to as a “overall creepiness” about them. I’m convinced that whoever developed the characters for the show, “Big Bang Theory” wrote in Sheldon Cooper’s character as a train buff based on some kind of personal experience. That character has no concept of others and is downright weird. I wish train fans were as funny as that character, though, but we all know that just isn’t that case. We all know that many of are as aggravating as that character, though.

Whooee!! Robert MacDowell and P51 have it right! How I wish I could have put all this together in the original post.

Now, here's the tough part, how do we deal with this? What do we do? What can we do?

I tell you, I wish I knew.

Well, here's what you don't do. You don't get rid of the problem people.

WHAT?? WHAT?? Yeah that's right. It's the worst thing you can do. You only have so much time and political power. Use it to try to remove someone, or use it for something more productive. If you try, it's gonna go 2 ways. Either you remove the problem people and cause a massive schism within the organization... or, you FAIL and you've squandered your power and wrecked your political strength within the group, so now you can't do anything at all. What, do you honestly think you're the first reformer to roll up and Save Them? No. The buddy club has been fending off people like you for longer than you know, and they're still standing... and none of the saviors are here anymore. That path is for the stupid. Save yourself the heartbreak. Learn to work within the system that is available to you.

And then, MAKE RAIN. It's very hard to argue with success.

Another thing you can do is form a Team Two. A different social group that takes on problems not currently handled by the present group. And that can operate at arms length from the buddy club. And if you start making rain in that area, you're really going to gain credibility.

Another thing, a very effective thing, probably a key thing, is to try your damnedest to listen to and work with the Problem People anyway. And when you're working semi-independently, make it so they feel "in the loop" and you'll get a lot less gossip and sabotage.

The other thing that can be tough is to admit that you, like they, are just another jackass with an opinion, when viewed from afar. That is the most important realization you can possibly have. You are not appointed by the U.S. government to determine what "stupid" is. You are not immune to stupidity, and it's insane to believe that. So it's a waste of time to attack stupid because that makes you a hypocrite. No. You have to cajole them out of their lunacy. And I find you have to gently but firmly say what is true, and Show Your Work. You see me doing this on most FRA issues. I almost always say what's true and then link the laws, regs, those gorram Tourist Railway Guidelines yet again. You have to hit people with the proof over and over again, I find at least 5 mentions before they'll read it, and at least 1 year before they'll change. So get started now and don't have a conniption if it doesn't stick the first time. Coz it won't.

Eventually, when you start making rain on a regular basis, you'll become a serious threat to them. More likely than not, they will "up their game" and make rain too. They've always known what to do, just emotionally lacked a reason. It's also possible they will become irrational and viciously sabotage and undercut your work to the detriment of the organization. The Board will be forced to do something, and it can still be "remove you" if you're down in the dirt with them.

It appears the Actor Jim Parsons is a railfan. His room on "The Big Bang Theory" has Lionel trains, and a poster of the 1940 Empire State Express on his door. In various episodes, he mentions model railroading, and wanting to be a Conductor (I think).

You are aware that is a show and can have no actual bearing on what that actor actually likes since it is acting? Not to come off as arrogant but acting like you like trains does not mean that you like trains.

Back to the topic at hand. In my very short tenure as a railfan which will definitely continue into the foreseeable future, I have already met everyone from the foamers to people who take a slight interest to the "you terrorist" types. I do feel like many have stated that a ton are turned off from this hobby from the anti-socials but I personally think that "Thomas the Tank Engine" has turned off the more younger crowd between 10-25 because it is interpreted as "You like trains? Like Thomas? Well look at the (Insert Derogatory title here).

Social skills are important because an arrogant guy who pushes people away from "His" hobby will come off a lot worse than someone introducing someone to "everyone's" hobby.

Just my two cents.

You're right. It is a show, and a fun one at that. While actor Jim Parsons may or may not be a railfan/model railroader in real life as numerous episodes have portrayed, you can probably say with a high level of confidence that the Producers, Directors, or Writers for the show have some affinity for the hobby (who can forget the Coast Starlight episode?). I don't believe that its random chance several episodes each year have some form of train/model RR component to them.

BTW: searched the web to validate any of this, but couldn't find anything specifically.

Not sure what you're getthing at with the Thomas issues. Ages 10-25 is a large sample. Peer pressure perhaps?

I actually like this show, but it is my impression that the writers/producers are making railfans and modelers look silly, antisocial and (not in a good way) eccentric. I don't think it is an image we need advanced on popular TV.

Glen Brewer
Railroad Glory Days

As the great philosopher Homer (Simpson) said, "It's so FUNNY because it's TRUE!!!"

In the real world, I have yet to conclusively determine, via Internet searches, whether Jim Parsons brought rail/model-railroad enthusiasm to the show or whether it's the work of series producer Chuck Lorre. I suspect the latter, as he has been shown to have put a lot of effort into the "geekery" of the show. (Several of the program's actors, including incidental co-stars Mayim Bialik and Sara Gilbert, left acting to pursue actual advanced degrees, so...)

I suspect that Lorre just found the real-life railfans geeky enough to become another object of satire, and that unlike, say, sports car fans or bird spotters, there aren't enough of us to inflict serious blow-back reaction to a negative depiction of an exaggerated example of our geekery. The sad reality is that several people I talked to about this show have pointed out that real-life "uber-geeks" are considerably less funny and more tragic. (Real-life example: guy that graduated college at 18, proposed to his first girlfriend, got rejected, and went and shot himself.....)

"I suspect that Lorre just found the real-life railfans geeky enough to become another object of satire, and that unlike, say, sports car fans or bird spotters, there aren't enough of us to inflict serious blow-back reaction to a negative depiction of an exaggerated example of our geekery."--Alexander D. Mitchell IV

Interesting, the Brits manage to poke fun at those groups with a bit of regularity (I'm thinking of "Monty Python's Flying Circus"), and I seem to recall "Are You Being Served" (if I'm remembering things right, this is the one with the setting in a department store) had an episode with some people in the toy department who loved working there because they liked trains, even though they hated kids.

Then there was that episode of "The Avengers" that featured a miniature railroad at a railroaders' retirement home, complete with the caricature of the damsel in distress (Diana Rigg, aka Emma Peel) tied to the track. I saw that one a while back, and was reminded of how stylish the show was, and how "hot" Rigg was! (Don't tell my wife I said that!)

Have fun, it's about 50 minutes. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGhuzkriB3s

Conclusion--In entertainment, as in preservation, the Brits know some things we don't. . .

Hmm, how badly do we "need" that movie, a modern version of, say, "Danger Lights," or a version of "One Way To Eldorado" or "Fiddle Hill," to sweep some of this attitude away? And to think how some of those classic short stories we associate with Railroad could also appear in mainstream magazines of the time, such as Colliers, or the Saturday Evening Post. . .another sign of cultural decline. . .:-)

I've also run into another variation of, shall we say, "uncooperative management" that doesn't quite fit what's been discussed so far.

This was a preservation effort (still ongoing) in regard to a roundhouse built in the post-Civil War era, which besides being the site of an interesting episode in the conflict, is even more significant in terms of railroad and labor history, and has interesting architectural and technical links as well. This facility, with associated shop buildings, was threatened with demolition, and an effort was scrambled to save the structures. The buildings were acquired and considerable work has been performed on them (though not so much recently, due to budget problems, problems in getting more grant money, etc.) Recently, the group with the structures even managed a bit of a coup in finding a tenant to lease out space in this facility, and is also willing to complete most of the restoration, and of course the rents coming in will help, too.

This all sounds quite successful, and it is, but there is a great irony that I see.

What stands out is that the greatest strength this group has is that they are NOT rail enthusiasts as such; the people are and have been businessmen, lawyers, and others of skill, education, standing, and influence in the community.

Their greatest weakness, as I see it. is that they are NOT rail enthusiasts as such. When I was with this project (and for a number of years, too), I suggested, and other rail enthusiasts who were also in on it, that the track on the property be restored as well. Currently, the only track on the property is what is inside the buildings; all other rail had been removed. As far as I know (and I've been away from this for a while, more on that later), the management is big on preserving the structures, but not on keeping it looking like a "real" rail facility. A former leader in this group (a local business woman no longer there because of retirement and moving away) said of this, "Why do you want little tracks around there? You have tracks running right past the roundhouse." (It's next to an active main line, and across said line from the town's active passenger station, which sees both commuter and Amtrak service.) I really can't complain about this person--she and the others kept this project alive when no one else could, and that certainly includes me--but her comments and attitude were awfully disappointing just the same. This, and some health reasons, are why I just drifted away, and the other rail enthusiasts sort of drifted off too. Some, including myself, had been there for the better part of 10 years, and did a fair amount of grunt work.

I may have reason to contact this group again, and may even get back in, but we'll have to wait and see if real railroad heritage can be brought back into this facility.