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Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33497
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Author:  Randy Musselman [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Hello,

Who ever has their handle on throttle, should that day ever arrive, better be pretty confident the overbalance on those drivers doesn't lift the wheel flange above the rail head....in the event of a high speed wheel slip......this reminds me of the article in the Central Headlight read back in the early 1980's about the NYC high speed wheel slip tests in the steam days....the tests may have been done with a Hudson? Quite freightening.

This makes a good case for lightweight running gear, cross-balancing and all that goes into the black art of taming a 2-cylinder.

Lots of good engineering required here.....and guts!

Regards,

Randy

Author:  Overmod [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Randy, the tests you mention were done with a Hudson and reported as part of Kiefer's 1947 report. This was one of the 'greased rail' tests: the locomotive was spun up to the equivalent of 161 mph at which point no 'bouncing drivers' or dangerous wheel lift was observed. I do not have my copy of the report to hand, but if you're interested PM me and I'll get details when I lay hand on it.

The 'correct' answer for high speed is to get rid of overbalance entirely (as on the J class) and then be very careful with your cross-balancing, lighten up all the 'outboard' sources of mass (like the eccentric crank), use lightweight rods as close inboard as you can get them, etc. An important consequence is that you then have to compensate for the nosing and surge from the (unbalanced) reciprocating mass, for example by the stiffer lateral compliance used on the N&W J class, or by distributing mass to give a higher polar moment of inertia. (You also want a stiff cast-bed-type frame, and good Franklin-type wedges, to keep all your longitudinal clearances tight, but that's just good general practice...) For surge, it might be possible to adapt Langer's 1947 patent (assigned to Westinghouse) for a centerline counterrotating balance shaft (see US 2,432,907).

One 'catch' with historical methods of testing for balance problems is that greased-rail testing, or for that matter testing on a roller-equipped test plant, may not detect problems related to balance or suspension. One high-speed slipping problem with the T1s, for example, was that momentary unloading of one wheel reduced the effective FA by up to 25%, and away she would go -- all drivers equalized or not! This could have been duplicated on a test plant... with some additional equipment... but nobody seems to have thought to look for it. A very important issue is that of critical speeds (for resonance in the vertical plane), where small 'bounces' add until the wheel indeed leaves the rail -- I have seen a couple of references to this being observed on C&NW E-4 Hudsons. Again, I wouldn't expect test-plant operation to discover these unless carefully tested for.

There are a number of very good methods of arresting high-speed slip on steam locomotives, one of which is a lateral caliper or eddy-current brake (used to implement traction control in general). Note that unlike the situation in using such a brake with a mechanical drive like a traction motor, the 'braking' effort does not materially affect the characteristics of the steam providing thrust in the cylinder, and hence there is little net power loss when the system is used, particularly when used lightly to 'trim' a propensity to slip and then spin.

In short, I am not particularly worried about finding good balance solutions for the speeds envisioned, or in assuring reasonable factors of safety for the test running. You get points, though, for recognizing the issues.


RME

Author:  jasonsobczynski [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Bobharbison wrote:

Try making a list of steam engineers who have experience running large locomotives at speed for long distances. Obviously there are others out there, from the likes of the UP program, 261, 4449, 700, etc. But it's a fairly short list, and Ross is definitely on it. I'd say his qualifications alone give him a reasonable shot at it.


Actually, while there is a list of individuals whom have run large locomotives at track speed, I doubt anyone living today has operated a reciprocating steam locomotive at sustained speeds in excess of 90 mph.

Anyone that is except for Ross Rowland, Paul Nichinni and one other individual who's name I shall leave out. This having been done on the NJT, once with a pilot tapping the engineer on the shoulder and shouting,"can this thing go any faster?". All the while with a wide open throttle doing over 90mph.

Best youtube has to offer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0R9PkVB244

I am not making a plug for anyone, just a point. In reality, Ross is one of three individuals with regular experience operating a locomotive at speeds of 90+.

Cheers, Jason

Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

I would like to think that, by the time any serious inquiry would be made to either Amtrak or the AAR Pueblo test track, there would be crew/staff with the project building up enough hands-on experience to be qualified to run the test run, and that furthermore any such engineer would be qualified and trained extensively on said route before being allowed a crack at the record.

You have a $10 million "concept car". Are you going to let Mario Andretti take it out on the Bonneville Salt Flats or Indy track for your publicity stunt record, or are you going to let your most experienced driver drive it? There just might be PR value to an Unser, Andretti, Jackie Stewart, or Jay Leno, but it's still someone else's track, and THEY set the rules.

Author:  whodom [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Jason- I remember a tale regarding a certain former Canadian 4-6-2 (one of two) that was being ferried from one location to another back in the 80's (?) which briefly involved some triple-digit speeds. The tale also claimed the owner of the locomotive was NOT happy when he heard about it.

I'm pretty sure at least some of the guys involved with that are still around.

Author:  JimBoylan [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

jasonsobczynski wrote:
Anyone that is except for Ross Rowland, Paul Nichinni and one other individual who's name I shall leave out. This having been done on the NJT, once with a pilot tapping the engineer on the shoulder and shouting,"can this thing go any faster?". All the while with a wide open throttle doing over 90mph.
Since Mr. Rowland's steam engine has Cab Signals and Automatic Train Stop, the Federal Railroad Administration regulations do allow it to run "over 90mph" on compatible track of the proper class.

Author:  IC382 [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Yesterday was lounging around the Barnes & Noble in Milford, CT and came across the latest issue of TRAINS magazine.

TRAINS had a great article on the 3463 and the goals of the project. I don't think I could give enough encouragement to the young guy that came up with the concept/project. Steam locomotive restoration, operation, and now this...well it isn't a members-only club. The individuals that are out putting on a great show for you in a certain 2-8-0...all started not too many years ago as kids having a dream for steam. Don't forget that...since young men and women who are trying to squeeze into the "click" are the future of steam operations.

The men who orchestrated the original steam excursions of the 70's, 80's, and even early 90's...well many are already gone...and others are not far behind.

Check out the TRAINS article and take a moment to read:

http://www.csrail.org

This project should be great to watch and should excite anyone who loves steam. I can't wait to see the finished product. Railroads always updated equipment, adding new technologies and ideas, both function & form all the time........

Author:  PCook [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

So which of your organizations will be the first to invite this group to come out and do their presentation on the project? This discussion has been going on for several months now and I have yet to see any group invite them to present their program.

PC

Author:  Mark Trebing [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

I would like to know whether the FRA regulations are different for modifying ATSF 3463, compared to building a completely new steam locomotive. If they are different, which are easier to comply with? Does it matter whether you are building a new design or a reproduction like Leviathan?

A regulatory difference could be important to any group comparing a restoration to operation versus a new locomotive.

-Mark

Author:  mikefrommontana [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

The new vs rebuild regulatory environment may be most pointed with EPA regs. An existing engine that's rebuilt will have less stringent emissions requirements that a newly built engine. I presume this would apply to steam power--though not sure how this would apply to some of the most recent builds (Kleoke (sic)).

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Author:  IC382 [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

The website lists all of the highly qualified railroad and engineering specialists that make up this project.

Take a moment and read their website and you will quickly understand that they have the resources and the abilities to take this to whatever end they choose.

You will also be able to see that while there will be modern technologies and theories utilized in the 3463 modernization. Fundamentally the locomotive will still look, sound, and smell like a steam locomotive when they are finished....3463 will not look like a neon, kit bashed toy or Doc Brown's #3.

This is a serious challenge...invisioned by professional students, academics, and professional railroaders.

Author:  alcoguy1 [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Attachment:
goggles.jpg
goggles.jpg [ 64.77 KiB | Viewed 2409 times ]


Found this while.... preserving an old scrap book, of rail related material, the other day. Personally I can't wait to see the new goggles speeding by!

Author:  co614 [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Thanks Alco Guy for the 40 yr. old picture of me in the cab of the 2101. I share your enthusiasm for seeing the rebuilt Santa Fe Hudson setting the new world steam speed record.

Goggles will be mandatory.

Ross Rowland

Author:  Mark Z. Yerkes [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Astounding to think that was 40 year ago.

Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Updated information on project involving ATSF 3463

Ross Rowland was born in the later half of 1940, if a couple sources I checked are accurate.

If this loco gets a lottery winner or billionaire underwriting it (or an overzealous government agency), it can be ready in perhaps early 2014--when Rowland will be 73 years old. More realistically, he'll be pushing 75 when it might be ready.

I've known people 80+ I'd trust with my life and car--fit and alert, hale and hearty. I've seen people under 70 I wouldn't trust to be able to mail my letter or cross the street.

Any decision along those lines will be made by the owners of the test track, not the locomotive owners or some Facebook popularity poll or some text-message vote. This is not Jay Leno looking you over and deciding to let you take one of his cars out for a 130-mph test drive.

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