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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:13 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Southold NY
Good afternoon Jeff,

The Lease does allow for "off property" operation of #39 with the mutual acceptance and agreement on the particulars by BOTH principals.

Additionally, we have provided for periodic livery changes to the locomotive for photo opportunities, movies, etc. The RMLI has an active relationship with movie makers and professional photographers and we recognize the potential for use of the locomotive, exclusively in Strasburg's care, for those projects if they present themselves.

Best,
Don Fisher, President

Railroad Museum of Long Island


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
I can totally understand why the long term lease was required, the amount of work needed is immense, and they don't want another situation like the 261 encountered.

I'm curious though, are there any other steam locomotives currently operating under such a long term agreement? Or is this is a first in the US railway preservation scene?

Also, if it is public info, at the end of the 48 year lease, is there an option to extend the lease and/or for purchase. Or is the goal that 48 years from now my grandson will be nearly my age and he can go ride it on Long Island?


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:13 pm
Posts: 151
Location: Southold NY
Hello Bobharbison,

I doubt many of us who penned this agreement and lease will be around at the end of its term. Both principals have tried to take into consideration future generations of Museum Trustees and Strasburg Company Directors.

It is my personal opinion that conditions on Long Island will not improve for the long-term operation of a steam locomotive. I think political, economic, governmental and land use/population issues will make it even harder to operate on Long Island in the future.

There is no crystal ball, but it is my opinion that Strasburg will have an opportunity to extend the lease if they so wish. The locomotive, as a part of the RMLI collection, may not be sold, it must remain the property of the RMLI. The RMLI may, as we have done here, partner with and contract with others to protect and preserve the collection and forward the Mission of the Museum. The successful restoration and operation of this historic locomotive is our goal. We are honored to have Strasburg as a partner and we thank them for stepping up to the plate to make it a possibility.

Best to you,
Don


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Bobharbison wrote:
I'm curious though, are there any other steam locomotives currently operating under such a long term agreement? Or is this is a first in the US railway preservation scene?


There are probably quite a few more out there than we care to think. For a huge variety of reasons--emotional, sentimental, accounting, tax purposes, whatever--there are pieces of rolling stock out there that are ostensibly "owned" by the excursion line or museum upon which they operate/sit but are technically leased or "on loan" from individuals or groups. Some of this is "just business;" in other cases it protects the rights of the owners should the management of a railroad change and approach a new policy. To make up an example, suppose CB&Q 4960 had been owned by an individual, and said individual decided that 4960 deserves a new home since the Grand Canyon RR seemingly no longer wants to do much with steam, and arranged for its transfer to the San Luis & Rio Grande? And in a couple cases, I'm sure it's just a case that a deed of gift or whatever was simply never filed before an owner's passing, and no heirs have ever contested the old "possession is nine-tenths of the law" axiom....

I've had it explained to me that if one wants to engage in quite a bunch of creative bookkeeping, all perfectly legal, an individual can derive massive tax benefits, etc. by setting up a separate leasing company to own the locomotives that one uses on a short line, and essentially lease the locomotives from your leasing company to your own short line. Allegedly a bookkeeping complexity, but financially advantageous--and a style of accounting supposedly widely practiced in Hollywood so as to make blockbuster movies "losses" on paper.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:01 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
n2qhvRMLI wrote:
There is no crystal ball, but it is my opinion that Strasburg will have an opportunity to extend the lease if they so wish.


I realize that a lot of things will change during that time, and it's hard to predict. I thought that possibly there was some verbage about "option to renew" in the lease documents.

Quote:
The locomotive, as a part of the RMLI collection, may not be sold, it must remain the property of the RMLI.


Ah, that explains why such a long term lease was the best option then.


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
ADM, so the bottom line of all that rambling is that you have no idea if there is or not, correct? OK, thanks....


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
I actually know of at least seven very, very specific instances firsthand, and I'm not going to go into details revealing private financial doings, especially when a couple of those parties are on this forum. I remember one of them allegedly ended in litigation over operating agreements, storage fees, maintenance responsibilities, and whatnot, spurred in part by a management change and boiler work needed. (Just go looking for a 2-8-2 crossing the continent if you really need your curiosity satisfied as to which one I refer.)

Yet another instance that's "history" now: PRR GP30 2233 was the personal property of Richard Sanders, and was used by the West Shore RR (of which Sanders was a major shareholder) before its dissolution as a tourist operation. The SW1 the railroad had was the property of the railroad, having been included (if I recall correctly) in the purchase of the Montandon-Mifflinburg, Pa. line. The 2233 was eventually donated to the RR Museum of Pa. by his heirs.

Two other people on this forum have chimed in to me with personal messages asking if I was referring to two OTHER well-known operations supposedly run with the same arrangements.

Frankly speaking, the actual ownership of this locomotive, that caboose, or that streetcar is really none of our business, unless we are being solicited to fund a restoration or repatriation or whatever of said item on either a non-profit basis or a "friend of the owner" basis. The terms of the agreement between the Strasburg and RMLI bear examination in this regard if we're being asked to support this loco's restoration; it seems in a sense like a "challenge grant" of public broadcasting fundraiser fame....

An anecdote I used some years ago: I spoke with the owner of one locomotive on one operation, a close friend of mine, and asked, "So is it true that you technically, actually own [XY&Z 999]?" He replied, "Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...... Depends. You wanna buy it from me, or hand me another bill?"


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2875
ADM, I'm well aware these type of arrangements are very common, I've been directly involved with them from time to time. I know of more than one case where the railroad I was working with appeared to own a locomotive but actually leasing it or operating it with the owner's permission. There are also lots of cases where the operating railroad and the museum are separate entities.

The class I's do it too, with leasing companies and holding companies and financing arrangements etc. I recall seeing plates on the side of a locomotive stating it was not actually owned by the railroad, but in fact owned by such and such financial.

My original question, which is getting lost in all this rambling, is "Are there any other documented cases of a tourist railroad leasing a locomotive for 48 years, as specified by the terms of the lease?" Not the "permanent loan" deals, or the fact that such and such a loco is actually owned by a member or members rather than the museum. I'm talking about an actual lease document stating a duration, and at least in theory, at the end of that duration the engine returns to the owner.

Granted, there could be private deals we're not party to. That's understood. But I'm curious if anyone is aware of any that are public information?


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
The more specific nature of your question is thus noted.

The only reason for rambling on in the first place was to ostensibly educate the next generation of "young guns" out there. I continue to be amazed at the "cluelessness," or lack of education, prevalent among legions of new/young rail enthusiasts out there, especially popping up on Facebook and more "public" forums. (You know the types--the ones begging Norfolk Southern to send SR 630 through Texas so they can see it, or the ones who think NS still owns 611 and 1218 and should just "take them back" and put them back in service..... or, worse, asking Ringling Brothers to "send the Circus Train" through their hometown, or trying to start a petition to get CSX to run a steam excursion program...)

If you want to go looking for a possibly public lease agreement, what's the arrangement regarding the City of Portland and SP 4449?


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 486
For the record, there have been a lot of actual preservation-based questions asked in the Railfanning version of this topic that have gone unanswered simply because they have been posted in that thread and the preservation "pros" avoid it. I'd once again like to thank Mr. Fisher for going to both threads and answering questions.

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Mark Z. Yerkes
Amateur Rail Historian


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:56 am
Posts: 28
Now this thread is going down the railfaning road too since we are talking about issues unrelated to nuts and bolts. Looks like it’s time to move yet another thread over to the dark side of the force. I too have more preservation related questions about the project however, they are non-mechanical so they wouldn’t be considered preservation questions to be posted here. I guess the logistics and fundraising parts of the project are not part of preservation and therefore not important. Oh well my loss.

Pennsy Power


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:28 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:28 am
Posts: 270
I realize this is a LONG way from completion but just curious...will she still retain her current number and will she be lettered for Long Island, Strasburg or PRR?


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 Post subject: Re: LIRR G5s 39; BACK ON TOPIC - LEASING
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2329
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
At NCTM we leased two streetcars from the Friends of NJT. The lease term was five years with an option by them to terminate early with notice, which they did when they received an opportunity to move ahead with contract restoration. In the meantime we had use of a vintage line car to construct/adjust the overhead wire on our demonstration railway.

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: LIRR G5s 39; BACK ON TOPIC - LEASING
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
wesp wrote:
At NCTM we leased two streetcars from the Friends of NJT. The lease term was five years with an option by them to terminate early with notice, which they did when they received an opportunity to move ahead with contract restoration. In the meantime we had use of a vintage line car to construct/adjust the overhead wire on our demonstration railway.


And this demonstrates an excellent example of a valid answer to the question that sometimes arises, "Why let and use a piece of equipment on your railroad that you don't actually own?"


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 Post subject: Re: Strasburg to Repair, Use LIRR G5s 39; Fundraising Announ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Pennsy Power wrote:
Now this thread is going down the railfaning road too since we are talking about issues unrelated to nuts and bolts. Looks like it’s time to move yet another thread over to the dark side of the force.


At the dire risk of getting this thread locked and/or moved to the "other" category:

Please.
Explain to us exactly what the [blankety-bleep] this "Interchange" is supposed to BE.

My presumption for the decade or more this place has been around is that this forum is open to the discussion of who, what, when, where, how, AND WHY we're doing this stuff.

Unrelated to "nuts and bolts"??? Hell, even the lease agreement between RMLI and Strasburg isn't really "nuts and bolts." If we don't discuss--and even debate--the hows and whys of this proposal/lease, then there's no reason to even have this forum. The issues of whether and how the PRR firebox can or should be fixed is completely between Strasburg's accountants, shop forces, the RMLI, and the appropriate boiler inspectors. Nobody else. The issues of WHY they executed this agreement? That we can learn from, and apply to our own circumstances.

Mistakes were made long ago with 1361, with 35, and with 39--and, for that matter, 2100, 643, 700, 2716, 1278, 759, 1533, and a host of other steamers, as well as trolleys, stations, and rolling stock. Mistakes can usually be rectified. But "those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it." We, as an avocation, NEED to help our heirs understand how things got to where they are, so they can avoid making similar or identical mistakes or turning down the wrong side tracks for lack of knowledge.

As near as I can tell, we had but one forum poster in the original LIRR 39 topic who was vocally upset about his impressions of the news. That's his right--and he, as (allegedly) a past member of said museum, has more cause to have a valid opinion than most of us do. So he vents his displeasure and frustration, in what appeared to be a non-slanderous and not factually incorrect manner. So what? Let him or her vent. The alleged "snark, complaining, whining" was purely trivial by Internet and even railfan forum standards.

It seems increasingly that the only standard being used to differentiate "railfanning" from "interchange" is the presence of an opinion--or, more specifically, an opinion someone finds objection to. That may be fine and dandy, but that ultimately reduces this entire enterprise to "what's the difference between a 4GE747 and a 5GE747?" and "I need a source for commutator brushes for a Brill 26E-HRX seventeen-notch controller, one with the BRASS contacts..." and "I'm casting parts for a Westinghouse Q-36 modulator air pump; anyone want some?" and "how many rivets do I need for this tank?" And then those of us without such specialized needs will simply give up and go elsewhere.

I would dare to suggest that the "parts dorks" who want the "Interchange" reduced to nothing but that are in the minority. But I could be wrong.

Pennsy Power wrote:
Oh well my loss.


More than your loss, mate.


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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