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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2037
Location: Southern California
filmteknik wrote:
Did Winton make any Diesel (upper case out of respect for that era) engine prior to the 201/201A development? I'm thinking not but maybe they made something not suited to rail or marine use.
My understanding is that Winton Engine and Manufacturing Company was acquired by General Motors in 1930 because it was making marine and automotive diesels; it also made marine gasoline engines. After acquiring the Winton, GM realized that a significant customer was Electro-Motive and purchased that firm.

Story is that Winton became interested in Diesel engines after a gasoline fire on board a gas-engine powered yacht badly burned a young female relation. It may have been a daughter and a fatal injury.

There is a biography of George Winton: Famous But Forgotten: The Story of Alexander Winton; Automotive Pioneer and Industrialist. For more about this book see this website: http://www.wintonhistory.com/ I purchased a copy several years ago.

Here is a webpage with illustrations of various Winton marine diesels (each model received a higher number): http://www.w4olf.com/wpc104/engines.htm

Here is another page about a model 129-6 produced c1927 into the early 30s for use in tugboats: http://www.tugboatenthusiastsociety.org/pages/tugmach-diesel-ancient-01.htm Page gives credit to Preston Cook.

Google Books has an on-line version of Rivers and Harbors magazine from 1919 with numerous mentions of Winton marine engines.

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:23 am 

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whodom wrote:
Very interesting stuff.

To me, this story illustrates what made diesel-electric power so superior to steam in terms of reliability. It wasn't neccessarily inherent to diesel-electric power; this reliability was obtained by designing, testing, operating and continually refining every piece of the engine until it was made as bullet-proof as humanly possible. The fact that thousands of locomotives were being mass-produced with identical engines (or at least engines using mostly identical components) allowed, and in fact required, this to be done quickly.

Contrast this with "modern" steam locomotive design in which only a relatively few locomotives of a particular class were built. The railroad's own staff then took over the maintenance of the locomotives likely providing little or no feedback to the builder, except in cases of really catastrophic failures. This must have made it extremely difficult to apply lessons learned to subsequent locomotive designs for anything except very general design parameters. It's apparent that most steam designers really didn't have anything like this mentality for continually testing every part to failure and re-engineering the part to make it last as long as possible.


Electro-Motive also operated a large multiple unit installation of EMD Diesel generating units in the "back yard" of the La Grange plant. This multiple-unit plant was used as a testing location for parts under development in addition to providing power for the plant and making it less vulnerable to commercial power grid outages. This was run almost continuously for many years, allowing the engineers close access to their project parts for inspection and evaluation. The generating plant provided a local supplement to the field testing programs. EMD produced a film called "Research Rides the Rails" shortly after the introduction of the 645 engine, which provided an overview of the various new product development efforts.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:35 pm 
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7,138 views. I don't know how many are from people outside the forum. I have ordered a magazine article from 1986 about the U.S. War Production Board and EMD's market domination post-WW II. Should arrive this week.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Just found this period advertising movie for EMD - very nice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDArn9WNryo

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:46 am 

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Amanda, Ohio
Electrio-Motive Company Blueprints from 1929 - 1931

My knowledge of locomotives, especially Diesels, is quite limited. However, while digging through a pile of assorted paper items at an antique mall, the words, “Electro-Motive Company” on a few old blueprints caught my eye. I had never heard of the Electro-Motive Company, but Electro-Motive sounded like something that might be related to locomotives. I am familiar with the name EMD on Diesel locomotives.

The prints are solid blue with white lines and are quite large. One measures 34 inches wide by over 7 feet long. After a bit of research, I learned that the Electro-Motive Company built marine, stationary, and locomotive engines, and that eventually it became EMD.

As I searched the internet to learn more about what I had purchased, I came across this thread.

Page-3 of the book posted by machinehead61 includes a picture (Figure 3) that appears to be of one of the engines that I have a drawing of.

It is listed here as a Winton 194-12 distillate engine. (There was a Winton blueprint along with these, but I had never heard of the company so I did not bother to pick it up. After reading the paper posted by Machinehead61, I contacted the antique mall to have the print mailed to me. I have not yet received it.) The way I read machinehead61’s post, there was only one Model 194-12 engine built. Further research disclosed that this engine was installed in Santa Fe’s M-190, where it remained until it was replaced with an EMD 567 in the late 1940s. The M-190 is now at a museum in California. I assume that the Winton 194-12 was scrapped.

An internet source states, “The designers had to put four spark plugs in each cylinder head. Where a gasoline engine would fire with one spark plug carrying about 35 milliamperes at 10,000 volts, the four spark plugs of the distillate engine each delivered 70 milliamperes at 20,000 volts." The drawing of the 194 engine shows two distributors on one side of the engine, and the photo in Figure 3 appears to show two more distributors on the other side. Each distributor has 12 spark plug wires coming out of it.

I have the following prints:

OUTLINE
MODEL #1460 ENGINE
DR (drawn?) W.E.C. 3-16-29
TR (traced?) ELH –ACH 7-31-29
CK (checked?) R.W.F.V 7-31-29

WIRING DIAGRAM – MODEL No. 148 DUAL P.P.
WITH 2-DT-513-A GEN. & G.E.-297 MOTORS
FIRST USED ON C.R.I.& P I.O 10080
DR. L.O.L. 6-22-29
TR L.O.L. “
CK 6-25-29
APPROVED C.H.F.
REV. No. 4

According to an internet source, “In 1929, EMC built 7 distillate-electric locomotives for the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Railroad.”



OUTLINE
148 POWER PLANT (G.E. GEN)
DR W.E.W -----------
TR JCS 1-27-30
CHD C.F..Z. 1-28-30

GEAR TRAIN ASSEMBLLY
#148 POWER PLANT
DR. W.E.Y 1-23-31
TR. W.E.Y. 1-29-30
CK. C.F.Z. 3-15-31

OUTLINE
MODEL 194 POWER PLANT
DR. W.E.C. 3-12-32
TR. E.L.H. 4-22-32
CK.

I noticed that the table on Page 2, Figure 2 (also on Page 70, Fig 62) of the paper posted by Machinehead61, that Model 6-148 is listed in the evolution of the GM series 567 diesel engine. There is also a 6-146 mentioned. Is this a variation of the Model 1460 that I have a drawing of? According to a penciled note on the print, the 1460 has (6) 8 X 10 cylinders, turns slower, develops less horsepower, and burns oil, not gasoline.

I hit a snag when I attempted to attach photos and scans of the prints.

Are any of these engines still in existence?

I have almost no understanding of what I have, or of how much interest it might be to others.

Or are drawings like these as common as old rail?

Bruce E. Babcock


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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:41 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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What you have is of great importance, and should be carefully preserved. I'd like to see these drawings scanned at good resolution and made available as digital files.

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Amanda, Ohio
Machine said, "I doubt that anyone involved with the publication is still alive and suspect that the ASME doesn't know that they ever published it.”


Sixty years ago, when I was a teenager, I would write to manufacturers asking for literature on their products. When I wrote to EMD, I received a copy of Kettering’s History and Development of the 567 Series General Motors Locomotive Engine. After finding the Electro-Motive prints, it occurred to me that I had received something similar, so many years ago. After sixty years, and a full week of frantic searching, I stumbled upon my copy of Kettering’s book!

My copy is identical to the one that Machinehead61 scanned, with two exceptions. I could not find any indications that it was published by ASME, and it is stapled, not spiral bound. Did ASME republish it at a later date?


Bruce E. Babcock

On edit: I should have said that I suspect that my copy was published by EMD. However the fact that it was read before ASME could easily be interpreted as an indication that they published it. Basically, my copy is identical to the one that was posted.

BEB


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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:05 pm 
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I sure hope that you can photograph the prints and possibly post them here for others who are researching these engines. At 34" wide and 7 feet in length I doubt that scanning them is possible.

I believe your prints to be extremely rare and I consider them to be of museum value. I hope you consider donating them to some place like the Illinois Railway Museum or the California State Railway Museum. It would be sad if they were to get lost or destroyed.

I have acquired photos and documents that I scanned and then donated to our local museum.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:10 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
Any blueprint house should be able to scan those; their main business these days is scanning "legacy" prints. Once scanned, they can also reverse the colors, so they print as black lines.

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:49 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:16 pm
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I own a lot of MKT railroad track layout blueprints, and some other structural prints as well from the same railroad. They are all wide and long.

One particular print shows the layout of the railroad thru the entire length of the city I live in. All underground utilities in the vicinity of the railroad are delineated thereon.

Our city has had severe problems with rainwater infiltrating the sanitary sewer system and causing it to flood citizens homes during severe storms. They have been going crazy trying to identify the place where all the water is getting in. Spents tons of money of testing and video taping the inside of the whole sanitary sewer system trying to locate the problem.

I work at the railroad here. I watch what happens with all the runoff from the railroad... it heads right for some large storm sewer drains on the property... big, huge whirling vortexes of water going down the drain. I got to thinking, so dug out that particular print and lo and behold, the drawing showed those old drains and where they went. Right over to city property and disappeared!

I called the city engineer, told him what I had, what I found, and asked if he would like to see it. He acted like I had just brought his grandma back to life, he was so pleased!

I took the big rolled up print to the city building, went upstairs to his office and layed it out on the big table in their meeting room. A big crowd of employees gathered around.

They were flabbergasted to see what the print showed them. Right there in blue and white... a direct connection to a system that is draining about 2 square miles of bare ground!!!

They said "Can we have this", which I answered with a resounding "Hell no!" I said you can have a copy made, if you make me 2 for myself.

Done deal. I instructed them that this thing is extremely brittle around the edges and they had better be careful with it.

They told me they'd hand deliver it to Springfield Blueprint over in Missouri. They must have did it, cause I got back the original and a pair of copies.

I called Springfield BP and talked to them about getting more copies. They said they burned a copy to disc and gave that to the city.. and even some sort of digital copy that they said the city could email me (or something like that) and I could email that to them and they could make more prints...

So, long story short... Springfield Blueprint can copy stuff for you!


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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
The Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum has a wide format scanner to handle prints like this; also a printer. Even though much of their collection is original linens, and so could be reproduced by the old Diazo process, scanning means the original linen will never be handled again. It also allows them to reproduce those drawings where blueprints were substituted in the files as the file copy when the original linen was lost or damaged (not altogether uncommon) and also the old "Van Dyke" reverse image copies that railroads often submitted with their specifications.

I was briefly involved with sorting and scanning Haskell & Barker drawings from the 1910-1922 period. Sheets that were damaged were taped together as well as possible, then run through the scanner in a carrier sleeve; a heavy paper backer with a clear cover that kept the crunchy drawing from being eaten by the feed rolls.

Another advantage of scanning is the possibility to print the copies at reduced size. Drawings were drawn at large scales in the pen and ink days because the draftsman could only work so fine. Those old drawings can easily print at half, or even quarter size and still be perfectly readable, although a magnifying glass is helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:50 pm
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As indicate by several others, large document scanning is not difficult, just need to call around. Even some Kinko's offer the service. I did one linen original that was close to 16' long.

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:27 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2037
Location: Southern California
machinehead61 wrote:
At 34" wide and 7 feet in length I doubt that scanning them is possible.
Oh, As others have commented that should be easy to do.

I work for a water utility and we have a large format Xerox scanner-printer-copier that can take 36" originals and stock. I think larger machines are made. That size for us would be no problem.

Scanning large documents depend upon the dpi the scanning is done at and at the storage capacity of the scanning program. I think I've scanned prints larger than the machine itself will copy.

Many Libraries/Archives/Manuscript collections keep the digital scans that are made during the copying process. Not only the IRM Pullman Library; but also places like the CSRM Library and the Newberry Library. I have been able to get a print of a previously scanned drawing within two days from CSRM.

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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:31 pm
Posts: 40
Location: Amanda, Ohio
The copy of the Winton drawing, that I passed up because I did not recognize the name, arrived in today's mail.

Image


A quick search on the internet revealed the following from Wikipedia:

"The Union Pacific Railroad's M-10000, delivered to the railroad on February 12, 1934, ... , was the first internal combustion engine, lightweight streamlined express passenger train in the United States.

Subsequent streamliners would be diesel powered, but a reliable engine of sufficient power-to-weight ratio was not available for the M-10000 and it was delivered instead with a spark-ignition Winton 191-A distillate engine.
"

I wonder how much the 191 differed from the 191-A.


Thanks for your suggestion on getting the blueprints scanned. I contacted a place in Columbus, Ohio that gave me a price that seems unrealistically low!!

Bruce E. Babcock


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 Post subject: Re: History of the EMD 567 Diesel Engine
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:09 am 
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Location: Rochelle Illinois
I'm certainly glad that you saw the value in this drawing and saved it. I'm also glad that there are scanners available that can handle a print that big.

Look forward to seeing the whole drawing.

Steve

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