Hi Chris,

Can you upload a photo of this arrangement when you get a chance?

Thanks!

Andrew Durden
Decatur, GA

Hi, Dave:

The best person to start with would be Marcia Rak at mrak@technomuses.ca . I don't have Marcia's phone number handy, but she can be reached through the museum's main number 613 991-3044 (Country Code +1). She handles most of the photo and archival requests.

CSTM has most of the CNR's preserved engineering drawings and photos- you might well find an album or ten of photos taken for the engineering people during CN's massive conversion program for eastern engines being transferred out west toward the end of steam.

You might want to ask Marcia not only about the CNR drawings/ photos, but also the museum's own files related to the design and installation of the oil firing system on CPR Pacific #1201. I will personally attest to the quality of that installation and the ease of maintaining a good clear stack and plenty of steam... although she was definitely able to cough up lots of black smoke on demand for railfans.

I'm sure Marcia will put you in contact with other relevant people as well.

Steve Hunter

Thank you - I'll gen an email off to her this evening. Whatever I get I'll share with Andrew.

Dave

A very intersting question. To my mind the main reason for the standard oil burning setup with the burner at the rear on CPR and CNR locomotives was to deal with very low temperatures. Don't forget that these engines were expected to work in temperatures down into the -40's, so they needed the shortest possible exposed pipe route from the heated tank to the burner. I have worked on locomotives with both setups, (rear mounted and forward mounted burners) and anecdotally I cannot say what system is best. They would have to be tested against each other on the same class of locomotive, something which was likely done many years ago, but I have never seen any evidence of this. Every industrial oil fired locomotive I have seen here in BC has had the burner in the "normal" position at the front, firing towards the door, the great advantage with this is that it does not require a brick arch, where the rear mounted burner most definately does. I have never seen a CPR or CNR locomotive with a superheater damper, they do usually have the baffles and table plate of the Master Mechanics front end, without the spark arresting screens.

P. Hosford

Dave, I took some detailed photos of the damper and burner arrangement on CN 1112 this afternoon. I'll put them online as soon as I have time, probably in the morning.

Steve Hunter

Thank you gentlemen. That's a lot chillier than it gets down here in the winter.......

Sent an email to Ms Rak, hoping for the best.

Dave

I've posted 18 detail photos of the damper/ burner arrangement on CN 4-6-0 #1112 to her online album:

http://public.fotki.com/elliottd/sfrmeo/sfrmeo-album--12/

I was alone with my 6 year old, with nobody to operate the firing and damper controls while I was under the locomotive: hopefully I'll manage to get some help within the next week or two and post further info, possibly a little quick video.

I hope this will help!

Steve Hunter

Thanks - it looks as if the amount of draft opening around the burner even at its largest isn't a large fraction of the total draft opening. The majority of draft enters forward in the firepan under the arch. Not sure how much draft area is available at the door.

The damper at the burner - is it opened or closed at a spotfire?

dave

My oil firing experience was on CP 1201 and we kept the damper part open with a low fire, but unless my memory is faulty, she only had one damper. She was converted for excursion service and burns diesel oil but for specific details about her burner/ damper arrangement it's been too many years.

My gut tells me the small rear damper should be part open and the front closed with a spot fire- is there anybody on the forum with recent experience on a smaller CN oil fired engine, say 4-6-0 #1392 at Alberta Railway Museum or 2-8-0 #2141 at the Kamloops Heritage Railway who could help Dave with this?

Steve Hunter

Steve, a friend was telling me that at first 1201 only had one damper and that for some reason the fire made a great deal of noise, but at some point the second damper was added, and that helped reduce the noise level

OK, the second damper would have appeared after I became so involved with RMEO and had to give up my involvement on Bytown's steam crew.

Her fire evened out nicely once everything was hot, but could be pretty challenging early in the mornings.

Thanks for confirming my (suspect) memory, Joe!

Steve

The Alberta Railway Museum has a video showing off 1392's cab. In examining the controls, it seems she only has one damper.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200987754674570

I wrote a message on their page asking them to get involved in the discussion.

Thanks for posting that, Joe!

In the video of 1392, they have the firedoor peephole open while the engine is standing still. I'm wondering if they are experiencing a need for extra air beyond what the damper can provide, hopefully only before everything is fully heated?

I wouldn't be terribly comfortable with the peephole open any longer than is necessary to light the fire or sand the flues... it was bad enough with 1201 when the fire hiccuped and fire came up through the floorboards!

Hopefully they will join in. I wonder what grade of oil they are burning?

Steve Hunter

As the Alberta Railway Museum's CMO which includes the xCN1392, I can ensure all that we don't run with the firebox door or sanding hole open. It was opened for the camera.
Firing hard, under speed with full tonnage, the boot damper will be 100% open with the fire filling the entire box and rolling over the brick arch. The combustion air will enter through the front boot damper.
The 1392 has just come out of a 3 year maintenance blitz with May 18 being her 1st outage to the public.
Part of the maintenance completed was the overhaul of the "boot" damper, linkage and control, brick work throughout the firebox (arch and side sheets) and repositioning/sizing the back burner and air clearances. She has just been washed out and is sitting over the pit.

On these small, narrow firebox layouts, I have never come across a burner damper, but they are quite common on the larger (6000s), with the burner damper adjusted for spot firing.

Terry

Thanks Terry - do you happen to know how the size of each damper is determined and the preferred locationfor the boot damper? The other arrangement is a factor of the tube opening area, but the location seems sort of a fit it in where you can thing.......

dave