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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 934
Location: Warszawa, Polska
Terry,

In Steve's photos of 1112, she appears to have the second damper on the back of the burner, and for the sake of discussion, I thought it would be interesting to look up the grate sizes of 1112 and 1392.

1112: 102" x 41.25", 29.2 Sq Ft
1392: 113" x 40.25", 31.6 Sq Ft

Also, what type of fuel does the 1392 burn?

http://cnlines.ca/CNcyclopedia/loco/diagrams/g-16-a.jpg
http://cnlines.ca/CNcyclopedia/loco/diagrams/h-6-g.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 5:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:41 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Alberta Canada
Fuel
For a number of years I was using straight "sweet crude" oil from a well head in Southern Alberta. It was interesting fuel to fire with. lots of "light-ends" that would brighten up the firebox. For the past number of years (10+), I have switched over to an industrial grade furnace oil (#2). It burns clean, low ash, only requires heating if stored below 40F. I very seldom use the tender heater.
The price is right and its readily available.

Terry


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 5:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
Thanks, Terry!

When you changed grades of oil, did you need to adapt the size of the nozzle opening, or were you able to handle it by just using different oil/ atomizer/ damper/ blower settings?

By the way, 1392 sounds and looks great in the videos. I really need to get out there for a visit.

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:47 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
Hi, Dave, PM sent.

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:26 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 416
Dave,
The Canadian back-firing technique was driven by politics more than engineering. Case in point, the only Form 19 (Alteration) in the 844 FRA boiler file was the 1946 removal of the arch tubes when converted from coal to oil. In the Canadian boiler regulation system, a boiler design is given to the government with a blank check and a team of engineers verify the integrity of the design. A Canadian Registration Number (CRN) is assigned to the approved final design. If ANY change is made, the process starts over with another blank check for total recertification no matter how innocuous the alteration.
The back-firing technique was a good attempt to deal with converting a coal fired boiler to oil while leaving the arch tube and bricks in place.
I fired the 2816 for several afternoons across Minnesota and N. Dakota during the 2004 97-day death march. The major difference I noticed from front fired engines was about a 45 second lag time when a change was made in the firing rate. I attributed this to the thermal inertia of the brick arch.
The price paid for back-firing was short lived side sheets exposed to the radiant flame. Photo one is of patches in the patches in the 2860. The second photo is the 3716 after a severe foaming/film boiling incident. I can pretty much say that these two infirmities are unique to the back-firing practice.
Attachment:
2860sidesheet.jpg
2860sidesheet.jpg [ 74.88 KiB | Viewed 1445 times ]

I left the corrugated photo large so the detail can be observed.
Attachment:
sidesheet.jpg
sidesheet.jpg [ 304.83 KiB | Viewed 1445 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:25 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5550
Location: southeastern USA
Thanks Matt - but I'm not sure I follow you......I get the point about the boiler design carved in stone and the relatively costly and difficult process of making alterations based on regulatory differences, but.....

Maybe it's my time spent working on small and industrial locomotives, but I've not noticed any lack of patchwork repairs to side sheets or corrugations in US style fired locomotives. Loggers, shortlines and quarries didn't maintain like mainlines did. And, the correlation between a bad foaming incident and where the burner is located is one I'm not following - In my experience, foaming is more a factor of a water quality issue. Again, we have had different experiences, so please explain it more fully so i can fill in the gaps on what I'm missing. Corrugations caused by a foaming incident certainly are much more extensive than "normal" stuff as very well documented in your photo.

About radiant flame impingement on the side sheets - perhaps more refractory and secondary drafting critically appplied might make a difference? I raised the question on another list about the use of overfire openings in oil burners to allow for more complete combustion towards the top of the firebox and nobody knew how to analyze it - neither did I, that's why I asked about it. Everybody hated it, just didn't know why.........My presumption was that anything not understood or different was wrong by default.

I wonder if our Canadian brothers agree with the political VS engineering history or if there's more going on than that - seems like the cost of decades of heavy expensive firebox repairs on large fleets of locomotives outweighs the one time fee for a second open firebox design approval on an otherwise identical boiler.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:34 pm 

Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 3:20 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Vancouver Island
That's an interesting point M. Austin, about the presence of arch tubes dictating the direction of the burner. I'm not sure if the direction of firing influenced the number of patches in 2860, it is one of the high nickel alloy boilers so is more susceptible to stress cracking, the reason for the many patches. Since the pictures of 3716 were taken it's firebox sidesheets have been replaced at the Kettle Valley Steam Railway, it is my understanding that the waterspace on the sides of the firebox were found to be extremely badly scaled up, which likely contributed to the damage in the foaming episode mentioned.

P. Hosford


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am
Posts: 668
Has anyone ever seen overfire jets in an oil-fired boiler? I know I have not, but I would think it could assist with cleaner burning...


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 Post subject: Re: Canadian oil firing practice
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:02 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1086
No reason for overfire guns on a properly-designed oil burner; both the geometry and the combustion characteristics are different.

The idea of the 'guns' was to introduce secondary air over the plane of a solid-fuel grate, as most such locomotives have relatively primitive or even 'aleatory' means of introducing overfire air.

In an oil burner, the secondary air needs to be carefully included with the flame plume, or premature quench and sooting will result. It may help to think of the plume as a cloud of flame that ideally will just fill the firebox volume without touching the plates themselves. Introducing pressure air laterally from the sides of the firebox will not help achieve this; in fact, it would be far more likely to disrupt a proper burner pattern.

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