Seems to me that at least Mr. Salone is trying to figure out how to get the EBTRR into hands that want it to survive long term. Yes, he has some failures on his past business record ( Thomas Edison was fired from his first 2 jobs and had hundreds of failures trying to figure out how to make a light bulb light) which prove that he's a risk taker and not afraid to try. More than can be said I'm afraid for his worst critics on this forum.

Also, the 1361 disaster was fully executed prior to his watch and it matters little now what is done with the remaining parts/pieces as there's zero chance she'll ever run again.

Let's hope Mr. Salone's creativity produces a long term EBT solution and I wish him good luck.

Ross Rowland

Look, there isn't anyone, save for a few folks sick of mowing around the tracks at the school or factory or who might want some property easement back, that doesn't want to see the railroad survive long-term, not even the scrappers whose ancestors bought it in the first place.

But there is sharp disagreement on exactly how it will, or should, survive long-term. Private ownership and operation? Public ownership and operation (federal, state, or local)? Private or public ownership and static non-operation preservation? Public or private ownership, non-profit or for-profit operation/administration/lease? Wait for a winning lottery ticket? Give up and go home? Propose any of the above, and I (and many others) can rattle off a long list of the disadvantages of that particular strategy, as well as the advantages.

But the bottom line remains that what worked in 1960 and 1970 cannot work today, if for no other reason than the equipment is 50 years older and tourism has changed, as noted in this thread. For a variety of reasons, maintaining the status quo in the situation the EBT is now in simply won't work--eventually you run out of cash or assets to sell off or consume, the "sugar daddy" dies, the original equipment wears out, you run out of cash for ties, etc.

For a variety of reasons that have been the stuff of too much discussion and speculation for nearly thirty years, other realistic/feasible alternatives--a Federal or Commonwealth takeover, private purchase, etc.--have not come to fruition. I know of at least one individual that claimed to have discussed the possibility of private purchase of the EBT--I gave him a full tour of the line, and he still has my copy of the Rainey/Kyper book--and suffice it to say that after a certain point said individual never brought up the subject again. Whether the reason/decision was his or the Kovalchick family's (if it even got that far), I don't know and don't care to ask.

There have been several other rail projects where other rational preservationists pursued and then gave up on, where it took the "right" person to make the right approach. One of the parties that I understood was involved with the "rescue" of the Preston/West Va. Northern 2-8-0's from a private owner in Pennsylvania is an individual that I describe as being able to sell sand to desert Bedouins and snow to the Eskimos, and leave them thinking it was their idea. Another one definitely involved in that project has a similar "political" track record for "making things happen," such as procuring the money for the Climax on the Durbin & Greenbrier Valley, track repairs, etc. ......

Is Salone the "right" guy for this job? I have no idea. I'm not even sure the people that have worked with him in the past are in the position to answer that. But before I ask MY nonprofit organization to donate four or five figures to this cause, my fellow directors and I have a fiduciary obligation and responsibility to ask hard questions and demand answers. And anyone that chooses to give more than pocket change or idle time is also obligated to make decisions based on something more than emotional appeal. And there's a whole "Friends of the EBT" organization that also deserves answers, sooner rather than later.
(And no, that's not a hypothetical. If and when we hear the right answers, it's not whether we give, but how much. We have a treasurer, however, that's even more cynical and "tight-fisted" than I sound.)

Seems to me that at least Mr. Salone is trying to figure out how to get the EBTRR into hands that want it to survive long term.

That might be true, the problem is, don't you think it might be better to have more than two hands? My gold standard is Strasburg-I value sustainable results. While there are many differences-when it was teetering on evaporation, the people who saved it for the future-shared the glory-making critical investors "vice presidents".
THAT was creativity, there's nothing particulary novel or imaginative about one guy saying "I'll save it", but I want total control and need you to GIVE ME lots of money in the next few months. You enjoy a certain reputation, has he reached out to you? Whatever our disagreements, I know you know how to generate a buzz.

Yes, he has some failures on his past business record ( Thomas Edison was fired from his first 2 jobs and had hundreds of failures trying to figure out how to make a light bulb light)

Ross, I can see how you value repeated business failure-and quite frankly, it has value-because as Mr. Taleb has pointed out the miracle of capitalism isn't that it rewards success, but that it punishes failure (unless of course you hail from Wall Street & have friends in high places, then you get public money to paper over your losses). What if the Fort Wayne guys decided to be cowboys and go it alone instead of working safely and effectively with partners? Their Lima engine might be sitting as a static display for fifteen years, rather than having just assaulted the Horseshoe Curve. Obviously, however, in this case FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION.


"which prove that he's a risk taker and not afraid to try. More than can be said I'm afraid for his worst critics on this forum'.

Risk taking is not only useful, it's inevitable, whether you work alone, in a family owned company, a detached service center, a mega-insurer changing from a mutual association to a publicly traded company, the tax exempt sector or government. As you develop however, you learn to mitigate those risks, learn your limits, seek advice, play well with others.

I really HOPE the EBT survives. I'd risk a rather large bet that the PHMC will not ride in as a white knight. Unfortunately, it faces a large and unnecessary concentration risk in that one person seems to bound and determined to go it alone rather than CHANGE and get a team together. If the last few years have taught us anything, it's not to put too much faith in any one individual as so many did, including those who were more than sufficiently old enough to know better.

I believe the cars are owned by Kovalchik Salvage.
Turns out that the cars have cast iron wheels, and shortly
after arriving at Mt. Union, they were no longer able to be
interchanged.

Lee Carlson

Hope and Change? Really? We're still talking about the EBT right...........?

Please.

The ONLY political involvement in this entire issue (well, that we know of at the moment) is that the political spectrum in general, by its mere actions and behavior over decades, has made the prospect of a government takeover/rescue of the EBT apparently a "non-starter" to the late Nick K. and his descendents.

[insert random Ron Swanson quote here]

Hope and Change? Really? We're still talking about the EBT right...........?


Yes. Why do you ask?

Ah what the heck, I just did that for fun.

The boxcars are still there at Mount Union, some in reasonable condition with lettering clearly visible, some have missing or rotted planks. One is burnt out and another seems to have someone living in it.
The cleared track is now looking distinctly overgrown in places.
These observations from my last visit in October 2012.

Edward

Re: USATC Boxcars

They are standard gauge US Army Transportation boxcars. Do not know their history prior to arrival at the EBT. Story #1) They were purchased by Kovanckick Salvage in the early 1960's for resale, but they have cast iron wheels and ceased to be interchange compliant and so were stranded. Story #2) USATC was paying Kovalchick to store them but they stopped paying. When pressed about rent, they transferred the cars to KS in lieu of rent.

Anyway, there are 15 cars in Mount Union and eight or so in Burnam. Below are the car nmbers for the ones in MU. They are ordered north to south. Sides and floors are wood with metal frames, ends are presed steel. Not sure about roofs. All have fire damage inside to varying degrees, but seem structurally sound due to the steel frame. Wheels are cast iron, trucks are cast (not arch-bar.) Might be able to roll north end car(s) to loadable area with a little track and bearing work.

By all accounts they are not part of the sale to the EBTPA. I bet Joe would sell them for the right price, but I also bet it will be more than scrap value.

22101 in the late 1960's:
http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/w9051d.jpg
22101 in 2001
http://www.spikesys.com/Bin/EBT/22020.jpg

1 1 22101 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 2 22134 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 3 22106 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 4 22104 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 5 22143 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 6 22127 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 7 2215? Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 8 22146 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 9 22140 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 10 22118 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 11 22116 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 12 22112 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 13 22126 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 14 22139 Boxcar USATC standard gauge
1 15 22141 Boxcar USATC standard gauge

ebtrr, thanks for photo links and detailed response regarding the USATC boxcars. I never would have guessed there were over 20 of them, based on the photos I've seen.

Over 20 cars? That's quite a collection.

A couple of observations that might be useful in describing these cars, but keep in mind these are based on memories from years ago, when the cars were easier to get to than they are now due to timber growth:

Overall, the cars resemble USRA or similar single-sheathed boxcars, with the observed trussed sides, a form of metal roof (Murphy?), and an early Dreadnaught style end with narrow ribs. Stenciled length, as visible on one of the cars at the time I was there, was 36 feet, and the trucks are Andrews type. Frame sills are straight, without a "fishbelly." Differences from the USRA cars are what would be described as "six panel" sides instead of the "eight panel" sides of the USRA cars, and the ends being in two sections instead of three. I didn't remember what the cars had for brake gear, but from the photos they have AB brakes (likely a replacement for a K system), but retain their staff hand brakes.

USRA 40-foot single-sheathed cars:

http://www.whatcheerlines.com/prototype ... s-box-car/

Too bad those iron wheels, Andrews trucks, overall smaller size, and a likely antiquated braking system keep these cars out of interchange; they would be perfect otherwise for a sizable car fleet for the likes of the Strasburg Rail Road! :-)

We have an old saying in computers that separates a lot of wheat from chaff: "Garbage in, garbage out." No computer - nor human for that matter - can produce meaningful and useful interpretation from missing or bad data.

Simply put, you're seeing what you want to see. At best you're giving it undue credence because you think "I've seen a lot of these, and this absence of data usually means this, and therefore it means it in this case." But I suspect your filters are darker colored than that. You've got an axe to grind on this one, I can tell.


Any tool can be misused. For me and my boards, SWOT is an indispensable tool. Here folks,

Do a candid and searching inventory of your organization's:
- Strengths.
- Weaknesses.
- Opportunities.
- Threats.
Basically we're looking for every factor about your organization's success, and we're categorizing them on "internal vs. external" and "good vs. bad". Lay it all out and see what is there. Not rocket science here.

If you can't see the value of that, you've taken too much school! LOL!




Counterpoint: they pulled off a Day Out With Thomas. Can't do that as a one-man show. What *I* see in this Form 990 is an organization way too active to be just one guy.

The cure for lack of data isn't criticism - it's research.

Now maybe you have some OTHER knowledge of this operation. If so, that's something you ought to mention - oh wait, you can't without people knowing that you're Bruce Wayne. Well, I say if you're getting it from the 990 then you are guiltier than I, at least I admit I see very little, you are seeing what you want to see.

Private little organization, that. Remind me to be not-such.

"Do a candid and searching inventory of your organization's:
- Strengths.
- Weaknesses.
- Opportunities.
- Threats.
Basically we're looking for every factor about your organization's success, and we're categorizing them on "internal vs. external" and "good vs. bad". Lay it all out and see what is there. Not rocket science here."


No it's not rocket science, but unless done right, it's useless and doing it right can be incredibly tricky. An individual is limited in their view and groups are subject to good old group-think-and nobody, no group has a crystal ball.

You have to be slightly fearful without being paranoid and U.S. business history is littered with companies that couldn't distinguish between a Strength and a Weakness - see file labelled "Baldwin Locomotive Works" or those that were blindsided by a disruptive technology that would never show up as a threat until it was to late.


In any case, this is a small, endangered enterprise. It's on the brink of death. In truth, it's flatl-lined and there's somebody saying "Clear" as he greases up the paddles. It has no strengths, few opportunities, lots of weaknesses and threats.
When you show up with a potentially fatal wound, your doctor doesn't say well he's got low cholesterol, is young, has a healthy heart.

In this case, we have an elderly arthritic with cardiomyopathy and diabetes with a potentially fatal gunshot.

Of, course this "anybody can do it" comes from the guy who routinely dismisses the experienced professionals, such as attorneys as unnecessary.


"But I suspect your filters are darker colored than that. You've got an axe to grind on this one, I can tell."

What was that you were saying about garbage? I'm interested in facts. Fact-trains aren't running. They pulled off a what? That's not sustained success-right now you have scrap. Fact-one guy is now asking for a lot of money in a short period of time. "Trust me". That's not my cup of tea. You want to send your money, go ahead. I will do the same when I see an independent Board and voting rights for donors. I have suspicions of your filters, so we're even.


"What *I* see in this Form 990 is an organization way too active to be just one guy."


Did anybody say there weren't employees? Indeed somebody asserting a past employment relationship posted here. What's absent is a board or other officers, to provide advice, consent and correction where necessary. Read what's written next time, it's not exactly rocket science.

Donate where you want-I have different criteria for who gets my coin-some of which are an independent and effective board of directors, evidence of a going concern, absence of duress, strong management team, strong likelihood of success. Everybody else is free to do the same.

If the EBT is a healthy little tourist line in five or ten years, I'll be happy to eat a big plate of crow here-nothing would give me more pleasure-but right now, I see no reason to believe that will happen. It's June 10, which means that a six million dollar gap must closed in a little over six months to avoid the scrapper.

Bruce Wayne? No, more like David Bruce Banner, Mr. McGee.

This could easily be alternately interpreted as one guy or company bankrolling a huge swath of paid people to do the grunt work, or enrolling the help of "civic" groups like the Boy Scouts, Lions Club, Civil Air Patrol, etc. to do the "grunt" work as a "donation," community service, or whatnot.

In the former case, it depends just how much cash you have at your disposal. In the latter case, you can almost always get groups like that to assist on a "one-off" basis--the town's centennial or bicentennial, a one-time fundraiser, the official ceremony handing off the railroad to the state, whatever. Unless the group in question derives something tangible from the work, however--community service credits, a donation to their treasury in exchange for work, a private train ride and party at a later date, etc.--you will seldom, if ever, be able to depend on them for repeat help on an annual basis, in my experience. (I work with annual festivals and fundraisers that routinely "hire" the Boy Scouts, Civil Air Patrol, etc. for things like site clean-up, parking management, etc., so I have experience in that regard.)

Would it be fair to suggest at this point that if he wants support, he'd do well to provide greater transparency about his current financial situation and business plan? I think what he's asking for is almost like a private firm seeking investors....and something akin to a prospectus is in order at the very least.

While we all would like to see EBT preserved and set up for success, we'd all also like to know that any proposal on the table has a reasonable chance of achieving that goal before we decide it's worth our investment.

I don't fault any entrepreneur for having tried and failed in previous ventures, so long as he's tried and succeeded in others.......but there's a lot of unknown quantity here that makes "trust me" not nearly enough from my perspective.

dave