In the early days of the EBT's 1960 revival, they papered the surrounding countryside with orange and black posters about 12 x 18 inches featuring the EBT logo. They were fastened to every utility pole and large tree with 25 miles of Rockhill Furnace, while further out, the proliferation was less, but I remember seeing them along Route 522 as far east as Beavertown and along Route 22 around Millerstown. It must have been pretty good advertising, as trains even on weekdays were well-patronized. I can't imagine they could get away with that kind of campaign these days. There were also large billboards at the Willow Hill and Burnt Cabins interchanges off the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

That was a different era... I recall travelling through central PA with my folks. We typically had a destination in mind, but the schedule allowed for plenty of stops along the way, and there were lots of roadside attractions.

As an example, we stopped at this replica ocean liner on a mountainside on Route 30. (It was often called Noah's Ark, but looked more like a liner to me...) http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/LH/grandview.htm



We also found things like unexpected carnivals and county fairs. I got to see the Famed Joey Chitwood Thrill Show totally by chance, being in Everett PA on the same weekend it was.

Back then, you'd pick up flyers at the places you stopped, and then pick the places you wanted to see next. You'd also take them home, and spend lots of time pouring over them and making plans for the next trip... Mom, can we go to Hershey Park next year? It looks cool!

Many of the attractions took under an hour to visit instead of all day. "See three states and seven counties!" sounds impressive, but on a hot and hazy July day the view isn't that much different than what you've been seeing driving through the mountains, and after a couple minutes of exploring the "ship" and maybe buying a tacky souvenir, the journey resumes until the next random roadside tourist trap, and there were a lot to choose from. Some were really cool, others were the definition of "Tacky Tourist Trap"

What does this have to do with trains? Well, a typical family could easily knock out a visit to EBT in a couple of hours. Ride the train out and back, maybe visit the trolley museum, and then it's on down the road to whatever comes next. Sure, when we visited, I spent the day, but for many folks one trip and quick look around was enough. So for many folks, it was just one more roadside attraction on the way through town.

Between week long trips to Disneyland where you're "in the bubble" (not leaving Disney property), cheap airfares to far away destinations and interstates that don't have space for roadside replicas of steamships, there ability to do the "Let's head over this way for a couple days and explore!" vacation has been replaced by the "Let's go to such and such a theme park!" vacation for many families.

And the theme park companies have marketing departments that work day and night figuring out new ways to lure the vacationers onto their properties and keep them there. One of the things that Walt Disney and his corporate successors learned in Anaheim is that the more you can keep the "guests" "in house" the better your bottom line looks.

Well there aren't that many restaurants around Union, fair chance I've eaten there! ;-)


That's why I think advertising is a rather poor marketing technique. It can be useful in a one-time shot, to "prime the pump" and rapidly increase exposure to an organization that is largely forgotten, but it's too expensive to sustain continuously. Unless you're Coca-Cola.




Preach it brother!!!!!!!!

Where you and I differ is that I don't see advertising as the controlling part of a marketing campaign for a smaller organization. It really is a tradeoff, if you're rolling in the cash and have zero spare human resources, then advertising may be your only option (bt, dt)... but in most of the operations I'm familiar with, there are more hands free with no money to spend. If you've got the manpower to do social media, get editorial exposure instead of ads, do guerrilla marketing and do "everything but advertising"... that is probably a better use of your resources. Advertising is such an expensive way to acquire a customer that nearly any other method is cheaper if you can pull it off.

Of course, there are those exceptions where due to unique circumstances, an ad buy makes sense. The town's tourist rag, or that inexpensive billboard right outside of town.




Because I rather doubt the usefulness of trying to "read tea leaves" from a solitary and highly incomplete Form 990. (where's section VII? Pilot error most likely, but Schedule O? Feed problem.) It's not even a dim substitute for a proper SWOT analysis. There simply isn't enough data.

You've got an itch to cut down another fellow's project. Having that itch doesn't cause enough data to appear, or make insufficient data magically sufficient. You lack the basis to make well-grounded criticisms. So you just criticize anyway!!!

Given that this road leads to emotional cruelty and frustration for the gossiped-about, creation of psychodrama and controversy, scaring away of potential donors and probable defamation... I just don't see that as a constructive activity for this forum.

The 'why dont we just pack up and head that-a-way' trips have also declined due to employers drastically cutting back on vacation times, too. We've gone from a culture of 'work hard and play hard' to 'work.... and nothing else.'
When employers cut back vacation times and often tell employees they can't use their vacation time because there's not enough manpower around to pick of the slack of their absence (which was caused by the company cutting back to worker numbers below what is optimal to even do the job, let alone account for sick days and other time off), you can't blame families for making the most of what little time they can get off.
For example, I was denied time off for jury duty last year! A manager had to step in and override that but it was only because they legally couldn't say no and get away with it. But every day I was called to be sure I couldn't come in. When I take time off, I have to know months in advance and have told friends not to even ask if I can do anything on a weekday unless I know a long way out in advance. That is the reality of the working American these days. When i was a kid, my Dad worked hard and got time off when he asked for what he'd earned. Those days are long gone. I heard on the radio last week of a company that had an ofifical stance of denying all requests for time off, then employees lost vacation time as 'use it or lose it,' and a class action ensued. A commentator made the scary prediciotn that this was going to happen more and more as companies decide if it's cheaper in the long term to eat a lawsuit while they're not paying an vacation time out...

When I said "cut the PR budget by 1/3" I wasn't implying it was a great idea, it was just stating a possibility.

My point, as other mentioned, is that they spent a good deal of money on PR and GOT RESULTS....if you factored in the $92,000 in royalties, they actually spent $140,000 on publicity! They spent an extra $120,000 on upgrades and extra payroll, and GOT RESULTS. Maybe those results were not visible on the bottom line, but they're non-profit, they can't show a profit!

Why is it that everyone in the business world wants huge profits right from the get go? This is why small and large businesses fail because they go all out for the first couple months and then stop trying and just expect money to roll in. This "bottom line only" concern ideal that business leaders are being taught is for the birds. If your company cannot expect to lose some money in the beginning, you might as well not even try. You should have a solid plan laid out how to start up the business over a 5 year period, including posting potential losses for the first couple years, if necessary, and then expand it over the following 5 years. If you're successful from the get go, awesome, but you can't always expect it. If your board cannot understand that and your investors cannot, they too should not be involved.

My point was and still is, they started out smartly, small their first year, increased their 2nd and went all out for their 3rd and got mega results, then shut down. I would be willing to bet ANYONE that if they had run this past year, for a 4th year, you would have seen that loss disappear to ZERO, which is the only profit a Non Profit can show.

They spent money and got results, if you took away all the expenses that I noted, and were able to put that money into marketing the operation to get more butts in the seats to their "middle of nowhere PA" operation, I bet you would have seen them increase their revenues by at least another 30%, if not %50 for 2012.

That extra revenue they could have had, could have been put into getting another locomotive up and running or finishing up that coach that has been languishing in the back shop for 30+ years to increase their capacity for more riders (which was greatly aided by the friends working on getting another box car converted for passenger use), but they didn't have a chance because the owners and the Preservation Association could not come to terms.

I count $300,000 in expenses JUST for payroll, improvements, and marketing from the $550,000 in revenue. Did anyone factor in the rental of Thomas from SRR and its transportation into those "travel expenses"?.... I'm quite sure that the delivery crew didn't drive 3 hours out there, unload, and turn right around without some proper permits, food, R&R and fuel . That operation had to take place twice. I can see them dropping $15,000 for that, if not more. From what I understand, Thomas was coming from a stint on the D&S, so its travel was much more than the few hour trip from Lancaster.

Overall, they took one HUGE giant leap forward in the 3rd year, then took 5 steps back by shutting down due to various reasons that could be argued till the world comes to an end.

I can't see anything on that report that does not make sense if seriously THINK about how the operation was starting itself over, essentially from scratch.

Maybe I'm wrong!?

Here's a quote from an 2012 Altoona Mirror article by William Kibler, that provides Larry Salone's explanation for why the EBT shutdown:



AFAIK, Mr. Salone never explained why the EBT suddenly needed $400,000 in "safety repairs. Furthermore, FWIW, the Friends of the East Broad Top operated a members-only excursion during the 2012 Fall Spectacular.

No, he never did.

Gents, not trying to be a thorn in anyone's side about this, but as this thread has gone all over the place I'll ask again:

Are the Transportation Corps boxcars that seemingly have no purpose at EBT be something that could be acquired and moved elsewhere for PRESERVATION? They appear to be standard gauge. Are they?

Does anyone know it they would even be available?

Thanks in advance for your kind response(s)!

Yes, they are standard gauge. Yes, they are real North American railroad cars, not the US Army knock-down export cars. I was in a couple of them twelve or fifteen years ago,and read the reporting marks inside, but never had any interest, so didn't write them down. I thought they were ex B&M, but current photos show they are not the B&M cars I thought they were.

Now, are they available? Who knows... we don't know if they were included with the sale or not, or whether the former owner has offered them for sale separately. Since this whole deal seems to revolve around money, I would suppose enough money would take them, but have no idea what would constitute "enough money."

You might do better contacting the principals involved.

The boxcars at Mt Union are standard gage. I seem to recall they are ex-MoPac, purchased during WW2 for USATC service in the USA. They may be 36-ft cars.

In 1969, they were in pretty decent shape. That was a long time ago.....

Howard P.

Will somebody please teach people just what a nonprofit is, and that they can (and should) have some money more than $0 left on their balance sheets at the end of the fiscal year? That a business can show a loss on paper without being bankrupt? That different accounts within the same business are not all intermingled and used for whatever is convenient?

When I see ignorant and unsophisticated people offering arguments which include such stupidity it makes me wonder how any of them manage to even balance their own checkbook.......and I fear for the fiscal health of even more of our already marginal organizations.

If you don't understand this stuff stop posting.

dave

"Because I rather doubt the usefulness of trying to "read tea leaves" from a solitary and highly incomplete Form 990. (where's section VII? Pilot error most likely, but Schedule O? Feed problem.) It's not even a dim substitute for a proper SWOT analysis. There simply isn't enough data."

On the contrary, to a qualified professional, a 990 is more than sufficient to make informed judgments about the nature and health of a 501(c)(3). Here's a perfect example. You call it "incomplete", but you notice the IRS receipt stamp of Ogden Utah. I would have filled out that section, but technically, since a prior question asks about the number of voting members, the information was supplied.

SWOT analysis? One of the problems with pedantry is specious misuse. SWOT analysis, to the extent it has any value outside MBA courses, applies to large companies, in complex and dynamic markets, where there are low barriers to entry, disruptive innovation, potential competition from new entrants, potential legal risks. All very conceptual, such considerations are really important at Apple, but a huge waste for this concern.

Applying it here would analogous to trying to install a West Coast office on a Pop Warner time, and ignoring blocking and tackling drills that are both more necessary and more effective at that level-and all very useless when the football field is up for sale.


You've got an itch to cut down another fellow's project. Having that itch doesn't cause enough data to appear, or make insufficient data magically sufficient. You lack the basis to make well-grounded criticisms. So you just criticize anyway!!!

No, I don't want to see misallocated capital. If the data is insufficient to question the project, it's insufficient to support it. Insufficient data is casting aspersions on other's clothing. But you just stepped in the quicksand there-that there isn't a TEAM to support the project.


Given that this road leads to emotional cruelty and frustration for the gossiped-about, creation of psychodrama and controversy, scaring away of potential donors and probable defamation... I just don't see that as a constructive activity for this forum.

Are you serious? We're discussing a specific organizational structure and its advisability, the official return of the organization and the background of the principal. These are all common considerations in ANY investment decision.

Spare us the visceral indignance and psychobabble.. I just don't see that as a constructive activity for this forum.

Will somebody please teach people just what a nonprofit is, and that they can (and should) have some money more than $0 left on their balance sheets at the end of the fiscal year? That a business can show a loss on paper without being bankrupt? That different accounts within the same business are not all intermingled and used for whatever is convenient?

When I see ignorant and unsophisticated people offering arguments which include such stupidity it makes me wonder how any of them manage to even balance their own checkbook.......and I fear for the fiscal health of even more of our already marginal organizations.

If you don't understand this stuff stop posting.

dave


I agree in general, but note this 990 indicates cash basis accounting. There's an old saw in accounting, that earnings are estimates, but cash is FACT. No, it's not insolvent (bankruptcy is a legal classification) but it's not healthy.

Also the first step to understanding these enterprises is to stop referring to them as "nonprofit". They are tax exempt public charities. There is no such thing as a "nonprofit', well other than that enterprise that has accumulated trillions in debt, with no prospect of ever discharging that debt.

Maybe those results were not visible on the bottom line, but they're non-profit, they can't show a profit!

This is NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!.

Wash your mouth out with soap. Preferably Lux.

I didn't say they couldn't build cash reserves to cover basic needs (including funding for keeping your head above water in slow times), but if they want to secure grant monies, (which they are certainly going to need) they damn well better learn to spend what they're given or lose out down the road... the public wants to see the money given to a non profit, spent on what it was requested for, not stashed away and then have the hand come right back out for more.

It's why I said they could have reinvested the money BACK into the operation & equipment etc.


Dave, I'm sorry I am not as sophisticated as you, but I certainly can balance a check book - thanks.


Sorry again, but I see, in plain sight, progress that was made and then cut short for whatever reason. Whatever train ran in 2012 for the FEBT had no relation to the operations of the EBTPA in the prior years. That was a private Charter between the K's and the FEBT. No wheel was turned in 2012 to produce direct revenue for the Railroad.

That $400,000 could easily have been sucked up into bringing that 4 mile section of ROW back up to acceptable standards. Their trips used to be 50 minutes Round Trip, with a decent layover at the grove. Hasn't been so in ages, due to slow orders placed due to declining maintenance. I believe they also ran hourly at one point.

Apparently the band wagon wants to bash the group, be it one person or many, for producing results. Ok then, ya'll can enjoy the trip - I don't jump on wagons.

(and no, I will not jump in front of the wagon either... despite the potential as a popular request)