Yesterday, I was told told that the owners of the two ex NYC RF-16 Baldwin Sharks might be willing to part with them for the right price. Apart from an interest in this model, the individual is an EMD guy, and indicates that this was received not through RR circles, but from car guys.

I'm not that deep into preservation circles but have heard WAY too many rumors about these two engines. I know we ALL would love to see these actually out running. This rumor would be akin to hearing that the owner of the B&LE 243 was going to sell.


Joe

The old adage is that "everything's for sale at the right price." That has been disproven many times, however--witness the stagnation and current controversy regarding the supposed "sale" of the East Broad Top.

I was told by a mutual associate of the loco's owner that the future of at least the Sharks has already been decided, and it doesn't involve sale. There are other things the guy supposedly has that should be of much greater concern and interest from a historical perspective, but the future of none of it will be decided by rumourmongering and speculation. Indeed, supposedly said speculation (over someone else's property, by people in no position to ever do anything about it) is part of what keeps him turned off to the railfan community.

Now, having said that, this info from me is several years old by now, and I've often witnessed startling transformations in priorities from individuals from the likes of a costly divorce, a cancer diagnosis, a near-fatal accident, etc. The rumour in the original post is not impossible (albeit decidedly improbable, in my opinion), but appropriate parties have probably already been in contact with the owner, and wanton inquiries from every railfan and museum where someone thinks "saving a Shark" is a "cool idea" will do more harm than good, trust me.

I've long said the wisest home for one of these is the RR Museum of Pa.--it represents the NYC, Monongahela, and D&H, all under-represented there--and was built by a Pa. builder. But that's certainly not for me to decide. Search the forums for lots of bytes wasted on speculation on these two locos, if you care for more information.

Let me just say that the individual who relayed this to me is not of the "three camera, 50 buttons, why is the lettering in the wronfg font, you are in my shot" foamer category.

I have long heard that the engines had a predecided disposition. Howwever, while that may be true, it is for us, a rumor. That a rumor is durable doesn't make it any less a rumor.

As ADM IV notes, stuff happens, minds change. To be blunt, I'm not looking for reminders of epistomological pitfalls of rumors, I've been in bureacratic circles long enough to know that you believe 50% of what you here and 10% of what you hear. I think those percentages are lowered here due to the constant generation and proliferation of the "DL&W pacific in the Delaware River, hidden PRR T-1" rumors in this arena. The folks that like to believe the USS Eldridge was the subject of an invisibility experiment gone horribly wrong have nothing on us in that regard.

There's two types confirmations that work here.

A.) Yes, this is true and I submit the following: Personal first hand knowledge of a potential sale or a public listing.

B.) First hand direct knowledge, confirming this is bunk.


As san aside, there's another possibilities that could cause a change. Loss of recipient capacity to accept the donation. Change in transportability.

In short while nothing could be different, so could just about anything could be.

This is all very interesting, but what shape are the locos in? Hasn't it been 20 years since they've turned a wheel? If they have been sitting exposed out in the elements for all this time, they may be just a shark-nosed pile of rust held together by gravity and entropy.

Just sayin'

Chris

The "Sharks," and a whole bunch of other "neat stuff," are at last report in secure undercover storage.

There are/were a bunch of AS-616's and RS12's outside the shops next to the Escanaba River/Green Bay in open storage, including a few ex-Seaboard Air Line that would be nice for some southern museums, but that's neither here nor there for us to discuss so far.

Well, I have first hand information, it's just a little dated. Twenty five or so years ago I used to do business with the then owner of Castolite, who was also the owner of the sharks. At that time they had just recently been moved to Wells, MI for rebuilding after having been mistreated on the Michigan Northern. At that time, the owner told me that his intention was to lease the units out until they had paid for themselves, then donate them to a local museum. This is likely the basis for the story that their preservation was assured.

However, things change. Since that time, the lawsuit to collect for damages to the units failed to bring in any money and the units were never repaired. It is my understanding that title eventually passed either to the E&LS or its owner in lieu of staorage fees. And my friend didn't want to talk about the issue anymore.

Unless the information that the "future of at least the Sharks has already been decided"
postdates the transfer of ownership away from Castolite, which itself was sold to a new owner several years ago, I'm not sure that the disposition had been decided at all.

I could never understand - despite prompting - why neither Trains nor Railfan has made an attempt to get the scoop /story on these units. Myself, I likely could not simply knock on the door nor send an e-mail requesting an interview but I would figure an editor at either of those two magazines could. Maybe it's a matter of having someone in the business well versed in the subject simply ask. Maybe a cash offering for the scoop is worth offering. Heck, maybe they are forgotten or waiting for an opportunity to discuss their future. Perhaps even act as a contact or intermediary for a possible sale to another organization - whether for use or simply display.

What a great story - one of the few a reader could find in the magazine before it was 30 to 60 days old news. What a scoop!

If what I had heard was true - that the owner is "anti-railfan" and would just assume keep everyone out, the article could detail that request yet still provide some insight.

Hey Railroad Explorer - you want to go national - big time?

/Mitch

Mitch,

You obviously have never attempted to have any dealings with the E&LS or its owner. Some years ago I attempted to gain access to one of the passenger cars in his collection, for the purpose of preparing artwork for a model. It didn't happen.

This is the epitome of a private collection, where the owner has bought all the pieces outright. He doesn't care what you or I think; he doesn't care what Trains Magazine or the railfan community thinks. In fact, since some of the builders plates on pieces in his collection went missing a couple decades ago, he doesn't even particularly like railfans. He has his own purposes, and his own circle of friends, and he's happy with that situation.

And, you know what? I'm OK with that. At least the stuff he's collected is inside, under roof; more than I can say about a lot of things in our so called museums. It is troubling at some level that we don't know if arrangements have been made for the collection past the owners lifetime, but look at the number of pieces supposedly safe in museums that have been lost over the years.

What Brother Storzek said.

When I had occasion to visit the area several years ago, I had a mutual associate, a supposed member of that "circle of friends," drop the company a line in advance. It did no good. I went in the office politely and timidly, inquired politely, and got what I would call a polite but firm "What part of 'No Trespassing or Railfans' don't you understand?" I shrugged and left, shooting and writing down what I could from outside the place instead (it's not as hard as you would think with the RS12's parked along a public parking lot, mind you.....).

Agreed. Secure, covered storage as part of someone's private collection is far better than unsecure and uncovered storage, either privately owned or as part of a museum or other preservation organization's collection, IMHO.

In that case we can all pretend a NYC Hudson also exists on someone's private collection.

And why not a Western Maryland Challenger while we're at it?

Jerry Jacobson has a private collection I think we can all agree is in the good hands in a manner we can all accept despite the current lack of accessibility. At least we know the equipment is not mythical.

/Mitch

Shhhhhh, that isn't "public" yet.

I was going to say Lackawanna Challenger but I couldn't remember if such a thing ever existed. Now that I think about it, I should've went with D&H Challenger seeing how no D&H steam survived. And now that I think about it, there's that connection to the Sharks themselves - last painted up in D&H livery.

Oh well.... If there's any progress on the WM Challenger, keep us posted, lol.

/Mitch

With absolutely no criticism of Brother Mitchell intended:

He noted:

>When I had occasion to visit the area several years ago,
>I had a mutual associate, a supposed member of that
>"circle of friends," drop the company a line in advance.
>It did no good. I went in the office politely and timidly,
>inquired politely, and got what I would call a polite
>but firm "What part of 'No Trespassing or Railfans'
>don't you understand?" I shrugged and left, shooting
>and writing down what I could from outside the place
>instead (it's not as hard as you would think
>with the RS12's parked along a public parking lot, mind you.....).

Would you suppose ... as I would suppose ... that somebody coming as the explicit representative of a museum or preservation group, inquiring about either the chance of a donation, or the current status of donation, would receive a different polite response? Someone with a briefcase containing organization credentials, instead a camera, in hand? (And perhaps willing to sign an NDA promising to keep the location of the locomotives 'under cover' until the date of turnover?)

Of course, I expect that's already happened. But I would also think it's long overdue to see some results, if it has...