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Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35260		 Page 3 of 4
Author:  Mark Z. Yerkes [ Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
Out of sheer curiosity, does anyone know what else is in this collection that the Sharks are a part of?
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
The ones who actually know aren't talking. For good reason.

Allegations/rumors have included a complete passenger train from one of the region's railroads, at least one steam locomotive (somewhat readily confirmable), the Sharks, one self-propelled car of some sort, and at least one piece that, if it does exist, would be a "one-of-a-kind" item in rail preservation (think a funeral car, an experimental loco type, unique freight car, etc.).

This is all separate from a large supply of Baldwin diesel road switchers that can be readily discerned from Google/Bing Maps and roster websites.

And actually, if you do a search of this forum, you may (or may not) find reports of this stuff and/or others. Take with the appropriate grains of salt.
Author:  Mgoldman [ Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
I hear Edward Snowden is seeking asylum there.
Author:  Mark Z. Yerkes [ Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
Mgoldman wrote:
I hear Edward Snowden is seeking asylum there.


This post is the reason why RYPN needs a "like" button
Author:  Howard P. [ Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
Most of Paulsen Spence's locomotives were of Southern or Mid-western origin (GM&O, T&P, ICRR, etc.). He had THREE NKP Hudsons. One had been shipped to Walden, NY (on NYC's Walkill Valley branch in Orange or Ulster County, now a trail), where another one of Spence's enterprises had a factory, with a rail siding. I think that particular locomotive was shipped south to join the others for scrapping. A railfan acquaintance of mine from 40+ years ago showed me a photo he'd shot of that NKP engine, elephant ears and white-lined number quite prominent.

Google "Spence Engineering"; the company still exists.

What a loss-- imagine if most of these 35+ locomotives had survived a few more years.

Howard P.
Author:  superheater [ Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
"THREE NKP Hudsons. "

Aaaargghh.
Author:  twofoot [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
Per Tom Klimek: "They are not available for lease."

So there you go.

-Chris
Author:  G. W. Laepple [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
In addition to the 30-some locomotives he had saved, Paulsen Spence also amassed a huge stockpile of spare parts, ranging from grates to gauges. I recall a published photo which included a stack of grates about six feet high. All gone.....
Author:  Les Beckman [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
G. W. Laepple wrote:
In addition to the 30-some locomotives he had saved, Paulsen Spence also amassed a huge stockpile of spare parts, ranging from grates to gauges. I recall a published photo which included a stack of grates about six feet high. All gone.....


It's important to remember here that Paulsen Spence was not responsible for the destruction of most of his collection; his family was. They never "bought in" to his dream and when he passed on, they quickly disposed of the collection. What's amazing is that they obviously had to realize that there was interest in the collection from the locomotives that were purchased. If those particular engines were sold, then obviously the others also had value. But someone (or perhaps more than one) in the family obviously had no patience and just wanted to move quickly to rid themselves of the collection, thereby probably costing themselves quite a bit of money in the long run.

Les
Author:  Howard P. [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
J. David can probably provide more details, but I recall that Spence was friends with Malcolm Ottinger (Phoenixville, Pa) and Thomas Marshall (Wilmington, Del), and there had been some prior arrangement for each of those men to get an engine upon Spence's death. This may have been a bequest, or simply a right to purchase. Ottinger obtained GM&O 425 (later used by him on his tourist road) and Marshall obtained MC 98 (moved from LE to Strasburg for storage in 1963, and then to Wilmington & Western, which Marshall was a founder of).

There was a story that Nelson Blount got wind of the Spence collection and tried to purchase all or part of it, but was stymied by two things: ICRR refusal to move the locomotives on own wheels, and the insistence by the Spence executors that everything be moved or scrapped with a short time period (30-60 days).

Most of the people who were contemporaries of these men are now gone themselves, and there is little besides remembered anecdotal history told to some of us 40+ years ago.

Sure wish I could call up Steve Bogen and ask him.

Howard P.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
Les Beckman wrote:
It's important to remember here that Paulsen Spence was not responsible for the destruction of most of his collection; his family was. They never "bought in" to his dream and when he passed on, they quickly disposed of the collection.


If you collect things that presumably have value, be it historical or financial--cars, stamps, insects, autographs, first editions, whatever--and you fail to impress upon your heirs or prospective heirs the potential value of these collected items by means of a will, prior arrangements for resale, the appointment of executors knowledgeable about these things, etc., then, yes, you are "responsible" for the destruction of the collection when your heirs toss them in the trash, call the scrappers, or hand it to a thrift store to be scattered to the winds for pennies.

When it comes to things of historical importance, I like to make the case that we are not truly "owners" of stuff like this, but merely the "temporary custodians." As my favorite t-shirt slogan says, "He who dies with the most toys IS DEAD!!!! Pillage and plunder!!"
Author:  JimBoylan [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
One published contemporary version, probably in Railroad Magazine, was that the family got the will invalidated because Mr. Spence hadn't signed or initialed every single page of it.
When Steve Maguire, traction columnist for Railroad Magazine died, his family wanted his trolley car photos destroyed, lest someone catch his fatal disease from them. Jimmy McHugh got a Catholic priest they trusted to convince them that the collection wasn't toxic or "possessed".
Author:  Bobharbison [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
OK, so I'm curious...

These engines and whatever else this gentleman owns are, at least for now, in secure covered storage, and in no imminent danger. Yet everyone is all worried about what should be done and how to do it and what they think is best for this privately owned collection.

Meanwhile, the Mohawk and Hudson equipment discussed in another thread is apparently in immediate danger, and very few people are paying any attention at all. No proposals for fund raising or offers to walk up to that place with a briefcase full of money and a plan.

What is it with this group? Is tilting at windmills more fun?
Author:  Dave [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
More practical, because of the built-in excuse.

dave
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rumor: Baldwin Sharks RF-16 "Available"?
More practical, period.

The stuff (supposedly) in the Michigan has national significance; there is stuff in there that, one way or another, would qualify under the mission statements or collections policies of perhaps half the rail museums in the nation. The Sharks alone I can find excuses for sending to six or eight different places--IRM, RR Museum of Pa., NYC Museum in Elkhart, Steamtown, Sayre, etc. There are RS12's I could scatter to museums from Virginia to Florida with perfect cause (ex-Seaboard Air Line). West Coast museums might want the logging Baldwins. And then there's stuff inside we don't talk about.

The NYC electrics only fit two or three places at best--the GE or Schenectady hoards in NY state, a competent NYC display/museum, or one to Cleveland.
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