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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:03 pm
Posts: 137
Location: Wichita, Kansas
To all of you you need to understand that The Great Overland Station at this time does not own the engine, the City of Topeka holds the bill of sale from ATSF to them and there is not one document that says they gave it to the Station. This project has been dragging on for a long period of time and there has been no real progress made by CSR in developing a solid working model for their fuel concept. To help you understand the issue with the engine and the various groups you have to understand that this whole deal was done under the table and without any public input when it started. There was also money given to Great Overland Station to continue cosmetic work on the locomotive and to be used to help raise more money to relocate it to north Topeka. This money disappeared in such a way that raises more questions about the management of the station group.

CSR is a very hard organization to research and its goals are lofty but so far in the real world has not performed well in bringing those goals to reality. The engine is not in such bad shape that it cant be put back together and a solid cosmetic restoration done on it. It is in a park setting and yes it sits back from the road somewhat hidden but the land around it is mowed and has a nice bike/walking path beside it. You all need to suck it up and realize this is a park engine that needs to stay a park engine and stop pontiffacating about what woulda, couda, or shouda been done. If you look closly at CSR it is a well played scheme that was using grants to fund their pie in the sky concept. The idea of using this type of fuel is great but why would you take a 75+ year old locomotive and try to use it as your test bed? Boiler and burner technology is allread here to make the fuel a reasonable source for power. The rest is just engineering and manufacturing a test bed that meets modern needs not hacking up something from the past and trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:55 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1201
As I understand it, the fate of #3463 will be decided by the City of Topeka and public sentiment with the following options:

1) Restore, maintain, and display #3456 in Topeka according to the original intention by the City and AT&SF.

2) Sell/donate #3463 to the group that has challenged the ownership of the locomotive, and wants to restore, maintain, and display the locomotive in Topeka.

3) Sell/donate #3463 to CSR for whatever purpose they contemplate.

4) Sell/donate #3463 to another entity for some other purpose.

5) Sell #3463 for scrap.

6) Hire a private contractor to securely store the locomotive until a final plan can be executed.

7) Do nothing and let the locomotive stand where it is today.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:45 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 837
"As I understand it, the fate of #3463 will be decided by the City of Topeka and public sentiment with the following options:"

There is likely more to it than those options, if I read some of the language in the judge's decision correctly. All that was decided was that of the proofs of "ownership" provided to the Court the only one that was actually substantiated was the one from ATSF to (as I recall) 'the children of Topeka' and not the City.

A very clear provision in that document requires that the locomotive be kept in good condition. That has been egregiously breached over the years, and not just by the GOS foons kicking the dedicated preservationists off the job.

I am interested in seeing if there is actual standing for an adverse-possession suit under Kansas law, including the possibility of an adverse-possession suit by the City of Topeka to acquire a better title explicitly in its name. The decision did indicate that some forms of adverse possession would not apply, but I think (not as a lawyer in Kansas or otherwise) that the language left the door open for more direct proofs of adverse possession for the desired time. An issue I'd like to see decisions or precedents for is whether 'aggregate' adverse possession might allow for transfer or quieting of title if no single provable "possession" by an organization meets the standards.

Having said that (and having gotten the popcorn out in preparation to hear what CSR expects to recover from GOS or whoever for improper representation) I think the City of Topeka is as likely a fair 'arbiter' of what to do with the locomotive, subject to the clear requirement to keep it in good condition at all times, as any other party prior to CSR/SRI's involvement. What I am hoping is that the City would avoid two courses of action -- the first being to act the same way Amarillo has with respect to Madam Queen; the second being to put the engine up for sale to highest bidder without a hard preservation codicil.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:07 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1201
Overmod wrote:

There is likely more to it than those options, if I read some of the language in the judge's decision correctly. All that was decided was that of the proofs of "ownership" provided to the Court the only one that was actually substantiated was the one from ATSF to (as I recall) 'the children of Topeka' and not the City.

A very clear provision in that document requires that the locomotive be kept in good condition. That has been egregiously breached over the years, and not just by the GOS foons kicking the dedicated preservationists off the job.



I have been told by sources involved with the case that the court decided that the City of Topeka owns #3463, and not CSR, Great Overland Station, or the “Children” group that has been fighting to keep the engine in Topeka. CSR has been making it sound like they were the victor because the claim of ownership by “Children” was invalidated.

The “Children” group still wants to take over the ownership, restoration, and display of the locomotive in Topeka, so I would say that their position has been bolstered by the refutation of the ownership claim by CSR; just as CSR says about the refutation of the ownership claim by the “Children” group. Now it is up to the City to decide whether either of these two competing groups will get the locomotive.

I understand your point about the City breaching the terms of the sale of the locomotive to them by failing to maintain the locomotive. I am not sure why that has apparently been ignored by the court decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Ron Travis wrote:

I understand your point about the City breaching the terms of the sale of the locomotive to them by failing to maintain the locomotive. I am not sure why that has apparently been ignored by the court decision.


Because it wasn't the question before the Court. The Court only had one issue before it, who owned the locomotive. None of the parties in the case, CSR, Topeka, or the Children group would have standing to bring a claim for breach of the agreement with regard to maintenance.

Think about it. Who would be the only company that would have standing to claim that the agreement had been breached with regard to maintenance?

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:51 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
That would add a Big New element to the discussion..... but would they want to get involved at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Dave wrote:
That would add a Big New element to the discussion..... but would they want to get involved at all?


They'd have to file some sort of other action, but I seriously doubt BNSF (the successor to ATSF) really cares.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 153
wilkinsd wrote:
Ron Travis wrote:

I understand your point about the City breaching the terms of the sale of the locomotive to them by failing to maintain the locomotive. I am not sure why that has apparently been ignored by the court decision.


Because it wasn't the question before the Court. The Court only had one issue before it, who owned the locomotive. None of the parties in the case, CSR, Topeka, or the Children group would have standing to bring a claim for breach of the agreement with regard to maintenance.

Think about it. Who would be the only company that would have standing to claim that the agreement had been breached with regard to maintenance?


My read is that, besides BNSF, the only avenue for enforcement of the term of sale regarding the City of Topeka's obligation to maintain the locomotive is for a critical mass of politically influential Topekans (?) to convince the Attorney General of the State of Kansas to sue the City of Topeka on their behalf. Involvement of the State's Attorney General's Office may convince the City that the locomotive is more trouble than it is worth and compel them to transfer ownership. If this is the approach chosen by the preservation-minded residents of Topeka, then they would be wise to first have a professional and politically well connected non-profit organization incorporated with the resources (management, technical, and monetary) in place for restoration and safe storage and display.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:53 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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Even if the issue of the City’s failure to maintain the locomotive were brought to court, I do not see how that could solve any problem. Wouldn’t this amount to BNSF attempting to repossess the locomotive?

If BNSF did successfully recover ownership, I suppose they could then decide to donate the locomotive to someone else with an interest. They could decide the present choice of whether to give the locomotive to the Children of Topeka group or CSR. That is an interesting thought. Which group do you suppose they would choose?

The entire dispute would involve the City’s failure to maintain the locomotive as donated to them by ATSF. Which of the two groups would reinstate that mission? Would it be the group that wants to restore the locomotive to its original cosmetic condition, preserve and protect it, and display it in the town to which it was gifted by ATSF? Or would it be the group what wants to use it for a “test bed” for a design concept to reverse dieselization with a return to new steam? Which alternative would BNSF choose?


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2408
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Scranton Yard wrote:

My read is that, besides BNSF, the only avenue for enforcement of the term of sale regarding the City of Topeka's obligation to maintain the locomotive is for a critical mass of politically influential Topekans (?) to convince the Attorney General of the State of Kansas to sue the City of Topeka on their behalf. Involvement of the State's Attorney General's Office may convince the City that the locomotive is more trouble than it is worth and compel them to transfer ownership. If this is the approach chosen by the preservation-minded residents of Topeka, then they would be wise to first have a professional and politically well connected non-profit organization incorporated with the resources (management, technical, and monetary) in place for restoration and safe storage and display.


Your read could not be more wrong, unless you know some quirk about Kansas law that I do not know that allows the state to insert itself into contract litigation between a municipality and a third party.

STANDING is key. Standing means you have the ability to bring a suit. Here, the sale/donation agreement with the condition stipulation was between ATSF and Topeka. The only parties that could bring a suit against Topeka for failing to follow the contract is BNSF, who is presumably the successor of ATSF. IN terms of the sale/donation agreement, BNSF is the only potentially aggrieved party that has STANDING.

As someone who works for a State's Attorney General's office, I can tell you that they typically have better things to do than investigate municipalities who default or fail to follow 50 year old contracts. The remedy for breach of contract is civil. BNSF's remedy is probably some sort of money damages stemming from the breach. It's a difficult provision to enforce and even more difficult to calculate how damages would be assessed. I don't know why people are focusing on this.

More importantly people, let us get realistic.

-BNSF is probably not going to sue Topeka for repossession of the 3463.
-CSR is probably not going to make the 3463 operational again.

If you are concerned about the future of the 3463, then I would suggest that either you or your group make a proposal to the City of Topeka to take the locomotive off of their hands. It would be more productive than coming up with baseless, pie-in-the-sky schemes to try to obtain legal retribution against the City of Topeka.

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